Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries • Hacker News Board

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#211

Post by kortilla » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:13 AM UTC

selestify wrote: post #173

quercus wrote: post #33

There was a period in my life (almost a decade ago) when I was sleeping poorly due to unhealthy work habits and excess caffeine. I was in my 20s and early 30s during this time and felt invincible, but the effects on my body were profound. The damage became so tangible I had no choice but to make a change, and have for the last 5+ years been sleeping normally. I miss those days of nonstop work, I was more productive t…

What was the damage, do you mind sharing?

A wallet so full of cash it was causing backaches sitting on it.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#212

Post by chubot » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

metrokoi wrote: post #159

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I snored so loudly that when I was in basic training that they made me sleep all of the way at the opposite end of the open-bay barracks we were in. I was 18 and near the height of physical perfection. As far back as 10 years old I remember feeling miserable every single morning even after getting a full night's sleep. At age 35 I got a CPAP and finally fixed a quarter century of piss-poor sleep.

This is so frustrating. Surely millions or billions of humans having terrible sleep is not just some genetic abnormality, and we did not evolve to have terrible sleep only fixed by modern technology. There must be some underlying issue that can be addressed for the majority of people.

YES! Read "Jaws" by Kahn [1] to find out why. If you're are familiar at all with Jared Diamond's books (Guns, Germs, and Steel) or have read Sapiens, it should be a piece of cake to understand. I bought this book for 4 people with sleep apnea or unresolved dental problems.

This book was published in 2018, and it's not yet common knowledge. Doctors I have been to don't get it, I have doctors in my family that don't get it.

It's historical and scientific, but it has a lot of practical implications for raising children too. A child's facial structure is surprisingly malleable (by lifestyle), and it determines how they breathe, which in turns affects everything else. Just like food, breath is at the base of your physiology, and affects all aspects of your health (dental health, mental health, and more!)

-----

Summary:

Agriculture and diet are fundamental reasons behind recent and huge changes in our jaw and airway development. They change us faster than our genes do. (epigenetics)

Another profound change that is faster than evolution is the development of speech.

In other words, apes and dogs don't have sleep apnea because they don't have agriculture, and they can't vocalize like we do. It's a crazy problem that requires an explanation -- your throat and neck tissue literally strangles you while you're sleeping, giving you heart attacks and many other problems.

There are a lot of practical implications, like breathing through the nose rather than the mouth (another article about this was recently on the front page of HN), and what foods you and your children eat.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Jaws-Hidden-Epidemic-Sandra-Kahn/dp/1...

There are a bunch of other books that touch on the related subjects, like "The Dental Diet", "Sleep Interrupted", etc.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#213

Post by pwdisswordfish2 » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:35 AM UTC

oarabbus_ wrote: post #167

SaintGhurka wrote: post #23

If your doctor tells you to do a sleep study, do it. If, as a result, they tell you to get a CPAP, get it. Those things are life-changing. I felt like an old man at 50 years old. My back was so stiff I couldn't put on my socks. When I got out of bed in the morning I felt so fragile, like my joints were all inflamed - especially my Achilles' tendons. I was too tired to do anything beyond 6 pm. Now, 51, I feel totally…

I got a CPAP for obstructive sleep apnea and it resulted in absolutely zero benefits after several months. It did cost quite a bit and take time to clean, though. I'm very skeptical about the positive effects of CPAP for all but the most severely affected individuals.

One trick you can try which I found really helps is, if you can, to shave before bed. I get a much better seal with a full face mask this way. Over time, you may find the cleaning gets easier. It is crazy how much you have to learn on your own about this condition. You should not have to get advice from random people on the internet; the field of sleep medicine w/r/t OSA treatment is still woefully underdeveloped. Once you get the machine, if your AHI looks good, there is not much more the sleep doc will do for you. The "treatment is working" even though your sleep may continue to suffer, e.g., you continue to wake up throughout the night. A CPAP cannot not measure the time awake after your sleep is interrupted, while you wait to fall asleep again. As far as the CPAP diagnostics indicate, the treatment is working.

If you stick with it, you should see some benefits, such that if you cease using it for a night, you will notice the effect. Good luck.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#214

Post by odysseus » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:42 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #80

SaintGhurka wrote: post #23

If your doctor tells you to do a sleep study, do it. If, as a result, they tell you to get a CPAP, get it. Those things are life-changing. I felt like an old man at 50 years old. My back was so stiff I couldn't put on my socks. When I got out of bed in the morning I felt so fragile, like my joints were all inflamed - especially my Achilles' tendons. I was too tired to do anything beyond 6 pm. Now, 51, I feel totally…

This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP, an effective alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1] Anecdotally my wife and kids were complaining about my snoring, and I bought one for $40 off Amazon. Not only has my snoring improved, but my lung capacity has improved. Plus it's just fun to play. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/

Which one did you get?

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#215

Post by dcolkitt » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:50 AM UTC

TomJansen wrote: post #179

dcolkitt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP, an effective alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1] Anecdotally my wife and kids were complaining about my snoring, and I bought one for $40 off Amazon. Not only has my snoring improved, but my lung capacity has improved. Plus it's just fun to play. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/

Wow I always wanted to play didgeridoo, but now I definitely want to buy one! Does you have any suggestions on which one to order?

I just got a cheap knockoff on Amazon, because I've got young kids who are... destructive... However at least so far, the cheap one seems to work really well and I haven't any problems as a novice player.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#216

Post by colechristensen » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

novok wrote: post #125

Eliezer wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sacrificed months of productivity to fast off 70 pounds in hope it would fix sleep apnea. It didn't.

Vitamin D deficiency is linked to teeth grinding and is correlated to sleep apnea patients. It might be worth it to take a 5000 IU pill along with sunshine walks close to solar noon to see if it improves your situation. I use dminder to track my estimated vitamin d levels.

I did this pretty regularly and when a routine blood test showed my serum vitamin D at the top of the range, I was told to lay off the daily 5000 IU vitamin D, there is indeed such a thing as too much.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#217

Post by tim333 » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 2:35 AM UTC

chubot wrote: post #212

metrokoi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so frustrating. Surely millions or billions of humans having terrible sleep is not just some genetic abnormality, and we did not evolve to have terrible sleep only fixed by modern technology. There must be some underlying issue that can be addressed for the majority of people.

YES! Read "Jaws" by Kahn [1] to find out why. If you're are familiar at all with Jared Diamond's books ( Guns, Germs, and Steel ) or have read Sapiens , it should be a piece of cake to understand. I bought this book for 4 people with sleep apnea or unresolved dental problems. This book was published in 2018, and it's not yet common knowledge. Doctors I have been to don't get it, I have doctors in my family that don't…

I was interested to discover fairly recently that human jaws don't develop fully if you don't work them by chewing tough stuff growing up. Hence not enough space for wisdom teeth requiring surgical removal and other issues.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#218

Post by downerending » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #195

philipps wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you mean by “average American” but millions of people in this country rely on emergency room visits for their health care needs. I suspect the NHS provides a superior “patient” experience.

Average usually refers to the mean or median. The uninsured folks you refer do not make up the majority required to reach “average” criteria.

You're not wrong, but here's a big raspberry for those (often the press) that use average to mean median.

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#219

Post by aksss » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 2:56 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #216

novok wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vitamin D deficiency is linked to teeth grinding and is correlated to sleep apnea patients. It might be worth it to take a 5000 IU pill along with sunshine walks close to solar noon to see if it improves your situation. I use dminder to track my estimated vitamin d levels.

I did this pretty regularly and when a routine blood test showed my serum vitamin D at the top of the range, I was told to lay off the daily 5000 IU vitamin D, there is indeed such a thing as too much.

What was the impact of being in top of the range? Were you noticing something adverse?

Re: Fitful nightly sleep linked to chronic inflammation, hardened arteries

#220

Post by paragraft » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 3:10 AM UTC

tlb wrote: post #187

dcolkitt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may sound crazy, but for those who can't tolerate a CPAP, an effective alternative is playing the didgeridoo.[1] Anecdotally my wife and kids were complaining about my snoring, and I bought one for $40 off Amazon. Not only has my snoring improved, but my lung capacity has improved. Plus it's just fun to play. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360393/

Might some other instruments work too? Harmonica played in blues style (with bends) seems to work the palate muscles pretty hard. Not that I don’t love didgeridoo music :-/

I remember being fairly asthmatic as a kid until a year of clarinet. I also enjoyed rather suddenly being able to hold my breath over the duration of a nearby bridge in car trips, a talent I lorded over my brother who hadn't opted for a wind instrument...