If you see the cops, start recording • Hacker News Board

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#101

Post by rgbrenner » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #19

rectang wrote: post #9

> But before action was taken by city leaders, Buffalo police lied about the incident. In an initial statement, the department said that a person was arrested "during a skirmish with other protesters," and that "during that skirmish involving protesters, one person was injured when he tripped and fell." The video clearly refutes the statement, showing that there was no skirmish around the elderly man, and that the of…

There is parallel with pilots and airplane crashes. There is a tendency for airlines to put the blame on a pilot in case of a crash, this disincentives pilots from speaking the truth. Unfortunately the 'anti cop' sentiment would have the same effect. Imgaine how hard it is for us to admit a mistake at work which brings the website down but here someone's life is at stake. What happens if a cop makes a mistake and cau…

IANAL, but the law takes this into account by requiring mens rea to be convicted of many crimes [0]... for example, 1st degree murder. If it's an accident, it's not 1st degree murder because intent must be proven. At best, an accident might result in some lesser charge that carries less time in prison. So I doubt your scenario (a mistake results in life in prison) would ever occur.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#102

Post by spiritplumber » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

footnipple wrote: post #37

jakelazaroff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is not very much standing between order and chaos, and after seeing much chaos, I choose order. The problem is that the police are causing most of the chaos. Looting has largely stopped in NYC, and all of the protests to which I've been have been entirely peaceful. But police still start beating and arresting people indiscriminately as soon as curfew starts — in some cases, even boxing protestors in so they c…

I respectfully disagree. I think the looters/insurgents are causing the chaos.

You're welcome to think that, but the facts disagree. See all the video for proof :)

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#103

Post by wombatpm » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #34

travjones wrote: post #4

Cops may ask you not to record and even threaten you with arrest for recording. Do not be intimidated; it is your right to record without obstructing. If you find yourself in a situation where you might be detained and thereby unable to control interactions with your device, on iPhone you can disable TouchID and FaceID by holding one of the volume buttons and the sleep/wake button simultaneously for a few seconds. Th…

If told to stop recording, I'd be tempted to reply, "Sir, I am recording for your protection." Note well: I have not actually tried this. IANAL, and this is not legal advice. Your mileage may vary.

I feel that way about body cameras. If the cops camera is not working then nothing he says should be taken at face value

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#104

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #21

cwkoss wrote: post #6

I think half of the police force should be 'armed' with nothing more than cameras. Arrests are not necessary in the vast majority of situations police are called for, and recording technology is far superior to verbal testimony for serving our courts

Cops carry guns because the situation can always get out of hand. Violent criminals still exist in society. EDIT: the ignorant people claiming average police officer does not deal with violent criminals have obviously never worked as a first responder. They deal with rape, suicide, murder, assault, domestic abuse, robbery, every week unless they're some small town cop in a gilded neighborhood. The cops in St. Louis,…

According to 538, police interactions have been trending safer in urban areas but rural and suburban areas are becoming more dangerous. It may be the small town cop who is most dangerous, but the big city cop who is most visible.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#105

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

oaue0823 wrote: post #73

notriddle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should. They get harassed enough that, if you start recording an antifa protest, you'll probably catch a badly-behaved cop on camera.

Antifa is just a gateway to / cover for blackblocs, where the real tactical operations happens, with targets, escape plans, and so on, "ACAB" is their slogan.

[deleted]

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#106

Post by oaue0823 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

ssklash wrote: post #95

oaue0823 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but it's a pretty hard job and mistakes are unavoidable just like with any job. I'm pretty fine here, when I make a code mistake I can fix it, and I'm paid so much more than a cop. I suppose that would be a good reason for me to bitch about cops in general right ? At least, that's what it seems when I read comments on hn the last days.

Because it's a hard job that doesn't pay well we should expect mediocrity? And mediocre is probably a good outcome, considering that bad policing often ends in death. Being president or a member of Congress is a hard job, yet we expect, rightfully so, a damn good job done, or we find someone else. Sure we should pay them better, and I suspect salary increases would be plentiful if you took them out of the military eq…

What makes you think we should expect mediocrity ? Just because a few cases here and there make the front page of tabloids ?

How exactly do you plan to absolutely eliminate any mistake from policing ?

You know, what we explain to antivaxx people, is that the benefits largely outweight the inconvenience, that's just basic pragmatism.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#107

Post by brendoelfrendo » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

oaue0823 wrote: post #61

ssklash wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could, you know, protest police brutality and misconduct and support police reform. Respect the reality that police are public servants, accountable to us, whose job is to keep us safe, and who have been endowed with great powers to do that job. The second they stop doing that job, they become incredibly dangerous because of those powers. I've always been amazed at the law and order, respect my rights, follow…

Ok but it's a pretty hard job and mistakes are unavoidable just like with any job. I'm pretty fine here, when I make a code mistake I can fix it, and I'm paid so much more than a cop. I suppose that would be a good reason for me to bitch about cops in general right ? At least, that's what it seems when I read comments on hn the last days.

I'm kind of unsure of your point here. If you make a coding mistake, you fix it, and you move on. Presumably, that mistake didn't kill anyone.

Kneeling on someone's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds is not a mistake. Shooting someone in their own home after you serve a no-knock warrant is not a mistake. Shoving an old man to the ground and walking past his bleeding body is not a mistake. Even if the officer didn't intend to kill someone, someone is now dead.

If we trust police with the authority over life and death (and really, I don't think we should), we should at least hold them to the highest and strictest standards of conduct.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#108

Post by deleted_account » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

oaue0823 wrote: post #61

ssklash wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could, you know, protest police brutality and misconduct and support police reform. Respect the reality that police are public servants, accountable to us, whose job is to keep us safe, and who have been endowed with great powers to do that job. The second they stop doing that job, they become incredibly dangerous because of those powers. I've always been amazed at the law and order, respect my rights, follow…

Ok but it's a pretty hard job and mistakes are unavoidable just like with any job. I'm pretty fine here, when I make a code mistake I can fix it, and I'm paid so much more than a cop. I suppose that would be a good reason for me to bitch about cops in general right ? At least, that's what it seems when I read comments on hn the last days.

Look at it this way, what would you think of a development team that shipped bugs to production and had...no code reviews...no unit tests...no bug tracking system?

And every time they shipped a bug someone died?

You might be inclined to improve the process, right?

I won't belabor the analogy. Campaign Zero has a great summary of the policy changes that can help: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#109

Post by jakelazaroff » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

kgraves wrote: post #87

drewbug01 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is ample public video evidence, available practically in real-time, that disproves this point. I think a slight effort on your part to look at the evidence would dissuade you. There has been looting, but to imply that protestors are "causing chaos" is a dishonest comparison given all evidence publicly available.

footnipple never said that protesters are "causing chaos", there is a difference between looters and protesters, and there is A LOT of evidence online of looters taking advantage of the protesting.

If there's even still looting in NYC, there's not much of it. Every single protest I've been to has been peaceful. The unprovoked assaults by the NYPD on those breaking curfew this entire week have happened during peaceful protests.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#110

Post by rodiger » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 8:03 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #75

Yetanfou wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. The US is saturated with firearms so it would be foolish for the police not to carry. In the UK the situation used to be different and to a certain extent still is, the police used to be unarmed (are they still?). It should be noted however that the number of knife crimes there is high - people tend to use the weapons at hand. This has led to a call for a ban on pointy kitchen kniv…

This is an argument activists have made for years in favor of gun control. The prevalence of guns in US society has made us objectively far less safe.

The number of defensive instances of gun use are at least equal to the number of criminal use (some studies say it dwarfs it but that's been questioned). If defensive is even 1 greater than offensive, wouldn't guns have made us net safer?

Edit: After thinking about it a bit more I can see how the average outcome is deadlier with guns regardless of who "wins"