Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

vice.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 283 posts

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#221

Post by scollet »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #114
nkozyra wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a great deal of sentiment that the approaches used in the United States are excessively militarized, racially unjust and insufficiently transparent. Using a problematic customer like that as a marketing highlight is just not a great idea.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

You are missing the last 300 years of foundational racism or at the very least, the last 50 years of struggling for civil rights.

American citizens are not equal, especially so in the eyes of law enforcement. If you are trying to group minorities into the protectorate under the law by saying "us", then no, American citizens cannot claim that the police protect and serve. If you say "us", then neither can you.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#222

Post by ardy42 »

renewiltord wrote: post #197
sol_invictus wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you don’t actually think the real world works this way. Police are not a ’tool’ in a vacuum, but rather a massively complex interconnected system influenced by thousands of different external forces. Changing the ’rules’ for them would do nothing.

So you say, but you have no evidence reform is impossible. Whereas nations with police forces not built like authoritarian staatspolizei have lower uses of force, violence, and abuse. According to HN, everything is impossible. In reality? Going to space didn't have to cost a billion a launch, electric cars weren't impossible, and we can have fibre internet. For every one of these things, the HN gestalt is that "they'…

> So you say, but you have no evidence reform is impossible. Whereas nations with police forces not built like authoritarian staatspolizei have lower uses of force, violence, and abuse.

> According to HN, everything is impossible. In reality? Going to space didn't have to cost a billion a launch, electric cars weren't impossible, and we can have fibre internet.

Not exactly. It's more like the status quo that serves them is impossible to change because they don't want it changed.

Stereotypical HN likes space and electric cars and hates anything that may disrupt their comfortable sociopolitical station.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#223

Post by johannes1234321 »

chithanh wrote: post #208
johannes1234321 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is not only about how "bad apples" are handled, but also what techniques are taught, what kind of leadership is given. If you stick cops in heavily protected gear this gives them stronger feelings. If you have a President (who isn't directly responsible for police) cheering to be "tough" ("Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you’re protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand ov…

> The list goes on - true, most cops certainly want to be good, but there are systematic issues emporing the bad ones. No, I would say that most cops will follow whatever the culture is in their organization. If the culture is rotten, then they do bad things.

Yes, the culture has an impact, but do people these days become cops to be on the "bad" side or for being the "good" cop? I hope it's still the later. But maybe I am wrong.

Important is: Culture and leadership matters. Whatever is encouraged by culture and leadership will flourish.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#224

Post by __s »

pstuart wrote: post #109
blattimwind wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A look into American popular culture is rather revealing in this aspect. Consider the currently running series "SWAT", which portrays the rise of a good-cop SWAT leader. That's the lead "good character" of the series, and he and his team are brutalizing suspects, some instances of which may actually be torture, commit various felonies on a "dime a dozen" basis, constantly abuse police powers, lie to superior officers…

I remember SWAT from way back. I guess this is a reboot. Ugh. The other show that comes to mind is "Cops" which seems to promote a deification of the police. That's guesswork because I don't have the stomach to watch it.

I remember watching Cops as documentation of police brutality before social media was rampant

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#225

Post by throwaway894345 »

nxc18 wrote: post #204
throwaway894345 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That joke doesn't support the claim that police aren't a force for good, only that they have been a force for less good for blacks. Of course no one is better off by "abolishing the police" (unless you're a fan of a global dark age).

this argument always comes up and its complete and utter bullshit. Please think about what you say for more than a half second before you say it. Police are not that effective, society does not completely collapse in their absence, and there needs to be a cost-benefit analysis done for even things that obviously seem good. When police murder and assault people regularly, using military equipment, that's a serious cos…

> This argument always comes up and its complete and utter bullshit. Please think about what you say for more than a half second before you say it.

"I'm not here in good faith" is an even shorter way of saying the same thing.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#226

Post by 6AA4FD »

jessriedel wrote: post #194
designdesign wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people always look for hard and fast rules? If it's your business you can do what you want. No one's obligating you to do anything. In this case Slack's employees felt as though it's unethical. That's totally within their rights to do.

Moral systems based on clear and universalized principles are more intrinsically compelling than arbitrary preferences that are merely labeled "moral". If Slack employees said they felt is was unethical to serve chocolate over vanilla ice cream, none of us would pay attention.

Yes, but there is almost no way to fully follow through on clear and universal principles. Instead of worrying about that, consider the possibility that our moral feelings are generated by a natural receptivity most of us have to the suffering of others, and that even if these feelings to not appear consistent with a universal and logical philosophical schema, I think it's more appropriate to carefully listen to the compassionate concerns of others than to try and develop ways to ignore them.

Maybe there are situations where it's justifiable to sell goods or services to a PD (if there are situations where it's justifiable to buy a smartphone or laptop, this is probably the case in my opinion) but it's still unproductive to dismiss someone who disagrees out of hand. They are probably disagreeing because they have a strong moral feeling about the practice, and it's worth respectfully listening to the reasons they have for feeling so strongly, rather than dismissing it out of hand because you don't think it's feasible to implement universally.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#227

Post by smileysteve »

jeffdavis wrote: post #158
designdesign wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B and C probably both fit - police aren't inherently a net bad, but the policing system in america produces too many bad outcomes to lend blanket support to; it's arguably unethical to profit from such a problematic body of work.

This is what I don't get: saying they are theoretically good but problematic (without necessarily saying "police are a net bad"), and then saying it's unethical to do business with them for routine products. If there is logic there, it's very subtle and I'm not getting it. Can you elaborate or compare it to a precedent?

This reasoning seems much like Communism vs communism;

communism, as a concept seems fair and just. Communism in practice by Russia or China has often benefitted a few.

police, as a concept of investigating and providing justice for crimes is a good thing; American Police, however, are showing fundamental misunderstandings of the rights of citizens and have seen reduced repercussions because of things like qualified immunity, asset forfeiture, or biases.

Another example of an attorney representing the people, is a good thing; but in US law (as opposed to European law) the DA sometimes seeks a conviction EVEN IF the DA has found exculpatory evidence (and doesn't have to share that evidence with the charged or their attorney)

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#228

Post by anticonformist »

anigbrowl wrote: post #107
nitrogen wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, why do people keep creating new accounts to post these very poorly thought comments ? Don't you have the balls to attach your speech to your semi public internet presence or are you just trolling ? I think it's fair for someone on the fence, or visiting the conversation from the other side, to comment on the crimes of both sides without fear of being personally insulted on HN . We can condemn the police and hol…

If someone creates a new account in order to make one post based on a screamingly obvious fallacy they deserve what they get.

Just because you claim it to be false does not make it false. You could be wrong.

So what exactly does someone "deserve" for expressing a contrary opinion?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#229

Post by rrmm »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #218
rrmm wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This conversation isn't going to solve the problem (but that is a cop-out). I think the metaphor though hyperbolic was a bit germane: I too have a lot of problems with media coverage in general. But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious. So it's oversimplifying to not consider the impact to the community (especially given the long historical context of racial oppression). My fru…

> But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious. Daniel Shaver had no criminal history, he was unarmed in his own hotel room on his hands and knees begging for his life when a police officer shot him five times. Tim Timpa was pinned to the ground with at least one officer kneeling on his back while he struggled to breath, begging police officers to get off of him, saying they were g…

> Minority communities' anxiety is the result of--not the cause for--the media's fear mongering.

I would politely exhort you to do more research on the subject and meet members of the communities involved.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#230

Post by anticonformist »

anigbrowl wrote: post #105
anticonformist wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This principle incriminates the protesters just as much. There is widespread rationalization and support for the "few bad apples" perpetrating violence/looting/burning/rioting. There is very little condemnation. Lots of quoting MLK Jr. "rioting is the voice of the unheard" and yet MLK Jr. certainly did not practice or advocate violence. If the protesters can't regulate their own bad apples then how can they judge pol…

One group is organized hierarchically, very well funded by the state, socially lionized to an extreme degree, invested with enormous legal powers, and provided with a vast array of paramilitary equipment including armored vehicles and helicopters. The other is a loosely networked group of malcontents and opportunists with a relatively low regard for commercial property rights and capitalism. It's disingenuous to equa…

The ethics are the issue. If protesters were unable to stop the extremists, that would be one thing. They're unwilling and uninterested in stopping them, and that is the ethical issue.

This is exactly the same reason police officers are ethically in the wrong. They could decide that "enough is enough" and push out the "bad apples" among them. Instead, they do nothing. That is their ethical failing.

The protesters (and their supporters) are doing the exact same thing, ethically. They refuse to even attempt to push out the extremists, as evidenced by the widespread rationalization and minimization of their actions.

These are very basic ethical dilemmas. Do you or don't you call out and punish bad actors among your group?

Ancient tribes were generally okay with anyone of their tribe committing any atrocity as long as it was against a member of a foreign tribe.

Civilized people condemn and punish even members of their own tribe and do it even when the victim is a member of a foreign tribe.

Post reply on HN