Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#201

Post by jlebar » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #114

nkozyra wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a great deal of sentiment that the approaches used in the United States are excessively militarized, racially unjust and insufficiently transparent. Using a problematic customer like that as a marketing highlight is just not a great idea.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

> I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops.

I'd really like them to step up. Where's the intervention and condemnation from the presumed silent majority of good cops in any of these incidents?

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/31/21276044/police-violence-...

Here's a video of an old man being attacked by police in Buffalo, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-shove-p... How many of the presumed silent majority walked by him as he bled on the ground? How many have stood up and said, the people who did this don't stand for what I stand for. How many cops are demanding reform and threatening to quit otherwise?

The Buffalo police initially lied about how this man was hurt, claiming he "tripped and fell", https://twitter.com/JeffRussoWKBW/status/1268712651292643334.... Where's the condemnation of that from the officers who were on the scene? And even if we presume this guy gets justice, where's justice for the presumed many people who aren't sympathetic old white dudes whose assault was captured on camera? They would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the video, and indeed they may still get away with it.

Where are the police unions in taking a stand against this kind of violence?

I dunno, like you I don't currently believe that we should entirely eliminate police from our societies. But if the silent majority of good cops we presume exists isn't willing to take a stand against what is clearly evil in their ranks, how good are their actions, really? Kneeling doesn't get you very far.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#202

Post by empath75 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #173

empath75 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(d) police will never reform unless we make it impossible to do their jobs.

The more obvious lever here seems to be money. What you are suggesting is very round-about -- somehow slack is so useful that, by denying police its use, they will see the error of their ways? Where does this end? We could also make them wear boots that are 5 pounds each, and use cars that randomly refuse to start 10% of the time. What is the point?

Obviously it's not just slack. Every company should be shamed out of doing business with them, imo.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#203

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

anticonformist wrote: post #32

_bxg1 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what's becoming apparent right now, yes. I was more of an "a few bad apples" person until this week. But they're making it extremely clear that as a faction they have no regard for anything or anyone but their own power and bravado.

This principle incriminates the protesters just as much. There is widespread rationalization and support for the "few bad apples" perpetrating violence/looting/burning/rioting. There is very little condemnation. Lots of quoting MLK Jr. "rioting is the voice of the unheard" and yet MLK Jr. certainly did not practice or advocate violence. If the protesters can't regulate their own bad apples then how can they judge pol…

There is very little condemnation. Lots of quoting MLK Jr. "rioting is the voice of the unheard" and yet MLK Jr. certainly did not practice or advocate violence.

And they beat him, demonized him and arrested him. More recently the President and his supporters called Kaepernick “a son of a bitch” when he was peacefully protesting and the wider society just yawned.

It’s kind of hypocritical for the country with the largest military in the world to say that violence doesn’t achieve anything. Peaceful protest and singing Kum Bah Yah didn’t work.

The US doesn’t mind collateral damage to achieve its goals as long as the damage is in a foreign country.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#204

Post by nxc18 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #132

nemothekid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dave Chappelle had a bit that went something like this: > Honey, did you see this? - Apparently, the Police have been beating up negroes like hotcakes! The special he mentioned this joke was aired in 2000 . I bring this up because it highlights that for some people the police haven't been a force of good for a long time, and smartphones and social media are forcing people to confront that fact. There has been many ar…

That joke doesn't support the claim that police aren't a force for good, only that they have been a force for less good for blacks. Of course no one is better off by "abolishing the police" (unless you're a fan of a global dark age).

this argument always comes up and its complete and utter bullshit. Please think about what you say for more than a half second before you say it.

Police are not that effective, society does not completely collapse in their absence, and there needs to be a cost-benefit analysis done for even things that obviously seem good. When police murder and assault people regularly, using military equipment, that's a serious cost to take into consideration.

Overpolicing has serious consequences, and the evidence suggests it actually increases crime. When NYC cops stopped proactive policing, _serious crime decreased_.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/nyc-cops-did-a-work-...

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#205

Post by rrmm » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #175

rrmm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

woops there goes the nuance again :D

I don't get it. Do you believe that by oversimplifying the conversation you're going to actually solve problems? Do you think it's helpful? Or is the problem less worthy than venting your frustrations (and in the latter case, are the frustrations legitimate or simply a product of the aforementioned media misinformation)?

This conversation isn't going to solve the problem (but that is a cop-out).

I think the metaphor though hyperbolic was a bit germane: I too have a lot of problems with media coverage in general. But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious. So it's oversimplifying to not consider the impact to the community (especially given the long historical context of racial oppression).

My frustrations are legitimate, as I'm sure are yours.

Calling it 'media misinformation' is begging the question.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#206

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

tastroder wrote: post #187

throwaway894345 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so hard if the media didn't cherry pick examples for the purpose of enraging Americans. There's probably a lot to be legitimately upset about, but blacks are killed by police less frequently than victim-reported crime statistics predict. If the media gave proportional attention to white victims like Tony Timpa or Daniel Shaver, it wouldn't feel so much like police are targeting black citizens. Maybe we would…

I mean, media sensationalism aside, honest question from outside the US: they had decades to change something and just about nothing happened, is a nuanced conversation about this realistic? Plus, if they wanted a nuanced conversation it would help if they didn't shoot at and abuse media representatives. One journo I follow tracks unprovoked attacks on clearly identifiable journalists, days ago when that was at about…

> they had decades to change something and just about nothing happened, is a nuanced conversation about this realistic?

This is simply because it hasn't been a priority. It's good that this is drawing attention to the issue (assuming there aren't more important issues that aren't receiving attention as a consequence--I'm withholding judgment), but it's bad insofar as it's being portrayed as a race issue when there is apparently no racial component in police killings. I think the good outweighs the bad, but we could have it both ways.

> Plus, if they wanted a nuanced conversation it would help if they didn't shoot at and abuse media representatives.

I care very little about whether the police want more nuance or not. Americans deserve a nuanced debate, better data about police violence, a media apparatus that isn't overtly and deliberately optimizing for strife and division, etc.

> I don't feel distribution of fatalities is a great argument. The absolute number of officer involved shootings in the US is just ridiculous for a first world country, supporting those currently visibly affected shouldn't be too hard then, it would help others as well.

It sounds like you don't understand the argument :). It's not "we shouldn't do anything about police brutality because it doesn't have a strong racial component"--virtually everyone agrees that our rates of police violence are far too high (however, that doesn't mean everyone agrees that it's the most important problem). The debate (well, to the extent that this is a debate--it's highly taboo to try to understand and remedy these problems) is about the extent to which this is a racial issue--this is important because (1) it's important to our ongoing national dialogue (again, not much of a dialogue due to taboo) about race and political ideologies and (2) it determines how we go about fixing the police violence issue (if it's not a function of bias then anti-bias training won't help).

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#207

Post by on_and_off » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

affyboi wrote: post #198

shibeouya wrote: post #178

Coming from a country where police has been rendered completely toothless by the same policies some people in this country are trying to promote which led to literally lawless areas, I am completely against this movement that's currently for some reason trying to demonize cops. I do not care if you're black, white, asian, gay, lesbian or anything - if you break the law, threaten a police officer, or simply ask comple…

> punished appropriately This is exactly what the protests are about, that police are using disproportionate amounts of force, and it seems to be heavily influenced by race. If you break the law, you're entitled to a fair trial and a fair punishment. Handing someone a fake $20 bill doesn't warrant death. Hell, I've gotten caught speeding multiple times, I can't imagine that you'd argue that it's worth an execution or…

it is also not the job or the prerogative of cops to punish anybody FFS.

They have a VERY special role in society where they are authorized to use violence against other citizens. This role absolutely does not include any form of punishment or beating up people because they feel like it.

Unfortunately police needs way stricter rules, monitoring and accountability than what they have today in many countries.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#208

Post by chithanh » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #91

kop316 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't there are good or bad cops. In any large organization there will be "bad apples" (malicious actors), that just statistically will happen. What is very important is how misconduct is handled, and how these "bad apples" are handled. Due to the legal concept of qualified immunity, it is very difficult to sue the police for civil or criminal liability. I understand the intent of qualified immunity. The id…

The question is not only about how "bad apples" are handled, but also what techniques are taught, what kind of leadership is given. If you stick cops in heavily protected gear this gives them stronger feelings. If you have a President (who isn't directly responsible for police) cheering to be "tough" ("Like when you guys put somebody in the car and you’re protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand ov…

> The list goes on - true, most cops certainly want to be good, but there are systematic issues emporing the bad ones.

No, I would say that most cops will follow whatever the culture is in their organization. If the culture is rotten, then they do bad things.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#209

Post by on_and_off » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #63

Are we saying that: (a) police are a net good, but slack is aiding/encouraging particular bad behaviors; or (b) police are a net bad and we should just deny them anything that enables them to do their jobs; or (c) police are a net good, but it's bad PR to associate with them

sure, let's frame everything in good vs bad, that's not limiting at all

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#210

Post by greenshackle2 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

sol_invictus wrote: post #5

I don’t get it. Are we now advocating that police is overall more of a force of evil than good? Legitimate question.

Are you saying police should receive unconditional support and praise up until the moment where their net moral score is exactly zero?

Or can we both believe that police is net good but falls far short of how good they should be? And that they deserve to feel the heat for it.