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Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

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Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there not a legitimate role for policing in a civil society? Look around. Most Americans would say no to this question. I don’t think they’ve thought through the consequences of that, but I guarantee a random poll would show most Americans want to abolish or >70% defund the police (which is effectively the same).

Your comment is unfair on three counts. One, your statistics are the reverse of reality. Two, the people that want to defund police are not the people that want to abolish the police. Considering the LAPD budget is 1.8 billion, and the NYPD budget is 6 billion, do you think that's by definition a bad position? Three, the minority that want to abolish the police (me, various anarchist and communist groups, some genera…

Reform and abolish seem too nuanced to me in this case. You want the police to be something completely different from what it is today.

Tearing down a house and building a car with the materials doesn't make a new house.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how you just completely ignore the part about how no one is saying "abolish the police and replace them with absolutely nothing we love crime!" You also lump various different debates all into one and assume the people you disagree with are in alignment with each other on all of them. But it's the other side that's had its "rational thought" overridden. These are not a good faith arguments.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing for. It seemed to be that "the police are more of a threat than criminals", which is factually untrue, even today , before any so-called abolition of the police (which is what people are calling for.) Also, I am not "on a side" and my original comment was calling out this attempt to make it a black-and-white issue. There are more than two options.

That the police are more of a threat to criminals to specific subsets of the population is absolutely, unquestionably, factually true. There is more than enough personal attestation to the experiences of black and queer people (including those who otherwise have privilege in some ways) in the US with police to say this with confidence.

They aren't to you perhaps.

And again, when people call for abolition of the police they are not talking about leaving a complete vacuum of every function they serve in society. They are calling for dismantling police departments completely and replacing their functions in society with other, more directly capable, social systems. You may want to actually read some of what's been written on the topic instead of having a knee jerk reaction that assumes the worst.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#173

Are we saying that: (a) police are a net good, but slack is aiding/encouraging particular bad behaviors; or (b) police are a net bad and we should just deny them anything that enables them to do their jobs; or (c) police are a net good, but it's bad PR to associate with them

(d) police will never reform unless we make it impossible to do their jobs.

The more obvious lever here seems to be money.

What you are suggesting is very round-about -- somehow slack is so useful that, by denying police its use, they will see the error of their ways?

Where does this end? We could also make them wear boots that are 5 pounds each, and use cars that randomly refuse to start 10% of the time. What is the point?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#174
post #56

I don’t get it. Are we now advocating that police is overall more of a force of evil than good? Legitimate question.

I watched a video today of a 75-year old man being shoved by police for something that I can in no way defend. He fell backwards and blood started leaking from his head while he fell unconscious. No officer even attempted to render aid. I have watched a video of a SWAT team breaking into a man's home and murdering him point-blank because he was holding a golf club for the crime of using naturally occurring plants and…

I’m sure there’s truth to it, but there are 800k police officers in the US. Are you ready to condemn the entire profession because of a handful of bad experiences?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#175
post #156
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but it'd be even easier to just not kill so many black people for what often appears to be very little reason. The whole thing would solve itself. If a few police started stepping on babies and killing them for sport, making sure that all the other victims of police got 'equal-time' isn't going to be winner.

woops there goes the nuance again :D

I don't get it. Do you believe that by oversimplifying the conversation you're going to actually solve problems? Do you think it's helpful? Or is the problem less worthy than venting your frustrations (and in the latter case, are the frustrations legitimate or simply a product of the aforementioned media misinformation)?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because there's a legitimate role doesn't mean that it's currently being practiced ethically. If it's not being practiced ethically the argument is that you can't ethically profit from it. That's the entire issue.

No one can sell anything to any police department ethically? If I'm a plumber and the local precinct calls me to fix their toilet, I am morally obligated to refuse?

Why do people always look for hard and fast rules? If it's your business you can do what you want. No one's obligating you to do anything. In this case Slack's employees felt as though it's unethical. That's totally within their rights to do.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I feel the response to this movement shows that there are fewer good cops that anyone would have expected. What leads you to believe this at an empirical level, though? The inciting incident of course sadly shows yet another example of detestable police and policing, and the reaction shows additional instances of cruel and overly aggressive policing (arresting and assaulting peaceful protesters and reporters in some…

> What leads you to believe this at an empirical level, though? The huge number of officers that surrounded Derek Chauvin's house, for example. https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/officers-protect-home-of-derek... The video is actually just creepy. But that's empirical evidence that you can verify by observation of said video. > How can you, I, or anyone know any of the true statistics? We actually know that the US ranks a…

How can you tell protecting a house from a mob is bad? Wouldn’t the neighbors have appreciated it not being ransacked and burnt?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#178
Coming from a country where police has been rendered completely toothless by the same policies some people in this country are trying to promote which led to literally lawless areas, I am completely against this movement that's currently for some reason trying to demonize cops.

I do not care if you're black, white, asian, gay, lesbian or anything - if you break the law, threaten a police officer, or simply ask completely irresponsibly around them, you should be punished appropriately.

What I DO agree with is perhaps greater transparency from the police. This is a problem that can be fixed. Anyone wishing to defund or even abolish the police clearly has lived a coddled life for way too long and doesn't know what happens when police can't do their jobs.

Be smart and don't let poisonous politics cloud your judgement - police are nowhere near as bad as some media would love to make you believe.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#179
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a great deal of sentiment that the approaches used in the United States are excessively militarized, racially unjust and insufficiently transparent. Using a problematic customer like that as a marketing highlight is just not a great idea.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

The alternative is to have policing focus on community service. One aspect of the role is to uphold the law, but the US takes this to a whole new level.

Here are some things that the US does that could be changed and, to an outsider in a different country, seem utterly absurd:

1. Refer to the police as 'LEO' or 'law enforcement officers', thus establishing their primary duty to 'the law' and not 'the community they're supposed to serve'

2. Protection of police from most if not all consequences of gross misconduct

3. Silly good guys vs. bad guys dichotomy where it's all to obvious that bad guys is a synonym for 'black person'

4. Dehumanising labels: referring to groups of people as 'blacks', 'whites', 'innocents', 'hispanics', etc. (this is as jarring to me as saying 'females' instead of women). Really instils an 'us v them' mentality.

5. Perpetual war mentality: war on drugs, war on this, war on that.

6. Excessive militarisation: cops with guns is one thing, cops driving tanks and armoured vehicles is another

7. Escalation to ridiculous extremes by default: in what world does a police force start a gunfight using other drivers' cars for cover, or driving a tank through a house to catch a shoplifter?

8. Constant media glorification of police brutality and breaking the rules to catch the criminal - as long as you catch the bad guy it doesn't matter

9. Private prisons and convicting people for profit

10. Things like no-knock warrants and excessive use of SWAT teams, civil asset forfeiture, etc.

11. Failure to meet basic human rights even in overnight jail

The list honestly goes on and if this is what you require to feel safe, then this safety is coming at the expense of many of your fellow Americans, most of whom pay with their lives: black people, poor people. Many countries in the world thrive without hiring a gang of armed thugs to defend their laws and treat the country as a self-contained penal colony. We have several Nordic countries in Europe that go even further to treat people who break the law as valid human beings.

Ok and good cops don't require credit for meeting the minimum expectation of a good police officer, and for as long as they don't blow the whistle they are still complicit. My own thinking is that this goes back to the US' attitude to slavery in its formative years and what you see is a deep-seated desire to use forms of slavery as a means to fulfil your own American dream. Much easier to do when your police service is an oppressive force.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#180

Are we saying that: (a) police are a net good, but slack is aiding/encouraging particular bad behaviors; or (b) police are a net bad and we should just deny them anything that enables them to do their jobs; or (c) police are a net good, but it's bad PR to associate with them

In my view, the dominant perspective currently is (b) and (c).
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