Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#141

Post by meowface » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #126

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

> I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. I feel the response to this movement shows that there are fewer good cops that anyone would have expected. They protect their own at the cost of citizens they should be protecting. They lie. They cheat. They assault and murder without consequence. > Even if there were 1,000 police brutality related deaths a year (there aren…

>I feel the response to this movement shows that there are fewer good cops that anyone would have expected.

What leads you to believe this at an empirical level, though? The inciting incident of course sadly shows yet another example of detestable police and policing, and the reaction shows additional instances of cruel and overly aggressive policing (arresting and assaulting peaceful protesters and reporters in some cases), but the reaction also shows instances of officers standing with the protesters and treating them appropriately.

I don't know how many law enforcement officers in the US are fundamentally moral or not. I really have no idea if this event makes me think there are more or less of them than I thought there were before, if looking at all LEOs in the country. How can you, I, or anyone know any of the true statistics?

Since we can't, I think the most important and most practical task is to try to improve and fix the system and the systemic issues as much as possible, and to try to decrease the odds that shitty cops will be hired or promoted and increase the odds that shitty cops will be quickly identified, removed, condemned by their former peers, and, if appropriate, prosecuted.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#142

Post by marcinzm » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #103

marcinzm wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. These aren't new issues, practically speaking every attempt at less radical solutions hasn't worked and there have been many. In the end, the solution will be filled with political compromise and the weaker your starting position the more compromise there will be.

Surely the amount of police violence is less today than say, the early 1900s, when outright lynching was practically sponsored by the police? You deny that there has been any progress?

Society as a whole has changed and I'd argue police have changed less than the rest of society. Given the videos from the last few days it's clear that the police see themselves as immune to consequences even in the age of social media, cell phone cameras and widespread public opposition.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#143

Post by dragontamer » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #114

nkozyra wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a great deal of sentiment that the approaches used in the United States are excessively militarized, racially unjust and insufficiently transparent. Using a problematic customer like that as a marketing highlight is just not a great idea.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

> What's the alternative though?

The alternative is Slack using someone else as their marketing example, and maybe taking down this blog post. Which is what they've done.

> I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops.

Why would good, or "okay" cops have to worry about being reprimanded?

What has happened is a "bad" cop issued a no-knock warrant on an innocent woman, and then shot her to death inside of her own home, and then was UNPUNISHED.

Then a few days later, a 2nd "bad cop" stepped on the neck of an African American on the street, killing him. Without the protests, this 2nd "bad cop" wouldn't have met any charges what so ever.

I think what the people want, is a form of feedback that actually works. If we see a bad cop, then surely we should be able to get that bad cop punished without rioting. No one wants to riot to get justice... but it seems like its the only option right now.

---------

Case in point: there are unbadged, unmarked, nameless officers patrolling Washington DC right now. Surely this should not be condoned.

Or do you think that "good cops" are allowed to run around without badges, refusing to identify themselves while shooting tear gas at protesters? Because that's literally what is going on this week.

What is going on right now, is a discussion about what to do about bad cops. And sure, we'll want to protect the "good cops" and "okay cops" who protect us. But what do you expect the public to do against bad cops?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#144

Post by rrmm » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #69

steffandroid wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you could look at the events of the past week and come to any other conclusion.

Someone can be quite concerned by police violence and brutality, but still view them as essential for a stable society. (The advocates of reforming police organizations go in this bucket)

Police are suffering from a PR disaster of their own making. Every day they present more examples of why they cannot be trusted.

They seem hellbent in making sure they are the villains.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#145

Post by vorpalhex » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #81

jeffdavis wrote: post #63

Are we saying that: (a) police are a net good, but slack is aiding/encouraging particular bad behaviors; or (b) police are a net bad and we should just deny them anything that enables them to do their jobs; or (c) police are a net good, but it's bad PR to associate with them

It's a witch-hunt, plain and simple. Of course the police needs reform, demilitarization, higher standards, more accountability, and better educational requirements. How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me.

To work towards a solution requires understanding the problem. Understanding problems on this scale is very hard and it's much easier to say empty phrases that please your base.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#146

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

rrmm wrote: post #112

throwaway894345 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish these broader debates were clearer and more nuanced. I get the strong impression that certain participants are not only deliberately trying to prevent this sort of nuance altogether. I'm not sure why anyone with a genuine interest in solving these problems would behave this way.

A lot of people are just really, really angry at this moment in time due to the long history of injustices and numerous examples in the past few days. Nuance is real hard to do under these circumstances.

It's not so hard if the media didn't cherry pick examples for the purpose of enraging Americans. There's probably a lot to be legitimately upset about, but blacks are killed by police less frequently than victim-reported crime statistics predict. If the media gave proportional attention to white victims like Tony Timpa or Daniel Shaver, it wouldn't feel so much like police are targeting black citizens. Maybe we would be having a different conversation--"police are too brutal in general, and while they aren't targeting minorities in their fatal offenses, perhaps there is a racial disparity for lesser forms of brutality, etc". But that's a terrible headline what with its nuance and truthfulness--I would never hack it as a journalist.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#147

Post by lm28469 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #93

lm28469 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This principle incriminates the protesters just as much. Yeah but you know, one group _took oath to protect and serve_ and the other didn't. It's like when Trump say some racist shit VS when your drunk uncle says the same thing, you can't put both sides to the same standards. Everybody condemn rioters, but for some reasons a lot of people, including the president and many officials, manage to rationalise police bru…

Also, why do people keep creating new accounts to post these very poorly thought comments ? Don't you have the balls to attach your speech to your semi public internet presence or are you just trolling ? I think it's fair for someone on the fence, or visiting the conversation from the other side, to comment on the crimes of both sides without fear of being personally insulted on HN . We can condemn the police and hol…

>We can condemn the police and hold them to the much higher bar they should be held to, and also condemn whatever looting and vandalism is occurring. "Two wrongs" etc.

I do condemn both, but you have to remember that one caused the other and one is a matter of your country becoming an authoritarian police state, not the other.

I'd take temporary riots over permanent US style law enforcement abuse. In a perfect world I'd be happy with none of the two but were not in a perfect world.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#148

Post by dylan604 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #78

Digory wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BLM co-founder is on NPR advocating to "defund the police." "It’s not possible for the entity of law enforcement to be a compassionate, caring governmental agency in black communities. That’s not the training, that’s not the institution."[0] There's a continuum of what "defund" means, but the idealists are pushing for actual, no-hyperbole defunding and disbanding. Police cannot be made good. They believe would be e…

In response to persistent injustice by police, there are really only a few options: (a) Get used to it. (b) Get ready to join up. More officers who care about justice mean that it's easier to get rid of the unjust officers. (c) Get ready to defund/disband, or at least reduce the scope of, the police department. It doesn't shock me that (c) is being mentioned. It's probably a bluff, but might have enough credibility t…

B) It is easier to pull someone down than it is to pull someone up

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#149

Post by jessriedel » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

designdesign wrote: post #113

xwowsersx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why though? Is there not a legitimate role for policing in a civil society? And if there is, don't they need to coordinate and collaborate just like any other organization?

Just because there's a legitimate role doesn't mean that it's currently being practiced ethically. If it's not being practiced ethically the argument is that you can't ethically profit from it. That's the entire issue.

No one can sell anything to any police department ethically? If I'm a plumber and the local precinct calls me to fix their toilet, I am morally obligated to refuse?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#150

Post by javagram » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

gliese1337 wrote: post #118

Digory wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BLM co-founder is on NPR advocating to "defund the police." "It’s not possible for the entity of law enforcement to be a compassionate, caring governmental agency in black communities. That’s not the training, that’s not the institution."[0] There's a continuum of what "defund" means, but the idealists are pushing for actual, no-hyperbole defunding and disbanding. Police cannot be made good. They believe would be e…

It worked for the country of Georgia. They disbanded their entire national police force, and violent crime immediately went down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Georgia_(co...

This page says Georgia has 42k police officers.

I think the disbandment you mention was clearing out old corrupt officers and replacing them with new recruits, which is mentioned there. Not actually getting rid of the police.