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Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

propublica.org

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Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#11

Post by danielbln »

EarthIsHome wrote: post #6

There's a reason tear gas is prohibited in warfare by the Geneva Protocol of 1925 right up there with the other chemical weapons. I got an extremely diluted dose of it while in my apartment with a window cracked, and I had to immediately close the window and leave to another room. I can't believe they're subjecting their own domestic population with chemical weapons.

The reason for that is not necessarily its direct harm though, but to avoid combating parties one-upping each other with chemical warfare, e.g starting with teargas and escalating to sarine gas or whatever. This post explains it better: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gwtj89/the_c...

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#12

Post by koheripbal »

EarthIsHome wrote: post #6

There's a reason tear gas is prohibited in warfare by the Geneva Protocol of 1925 right up there with the other chemical weapons. I got an extremely diluted dose of it while in my apartment with a window cracked, and I had to immediately close the window and leave to another room. I can't believe they're subjecting their own domestic population with chemical weapons.

Dose is everything. The Geneva Convention could not have regulated dosages of chemical weapons - that would not enforceable, nor practical. ...so instead they banned all chemical gases outright.

This does not imply that tear gas is therefor more deadly than the government or the public is aware.

The word "chemical" also doesn't mean "toxic". Water is a chemical, and when riot control measures use water cannons, should we term that "chemical weapons". It's gunpowder a chemical weapon then? What about Uranium. Heck, even a cannon-ball is a chemical weapon.

See what I did there? Using exaggerated terms to advance your agenda just serves to discredit your point.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#13

Post by koheripbal »

vore wrote: post #4
war1025 wrote: post #2

> Especially During COVID Public gatherings are supposedly extremely dangerous right now. The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face. In February the "Philly had a parade, St Louis Stayed home" article was being shared by here and everywhere else. Fr…

Or maybe the fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests that police brutality is a horrible forever unaddressed injustice that doesn't care if there's a pandemic or not?

Police Brutality isn't a new problem. They should have waited until covid-19 was gone.

Now we're likely to see a 2nd peak because of these protests.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#14

Post by anigbrowl »

war1025 wrote: post #5
vore wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests that police brutality is a horrible forever unaddressed injustice that doesn't care if there's a pandemic or not?

> doesn't care if there's a pandemic or not There are many people that don't care if there is a pandemic of not. They were forcibly kept away from their jobs and families for three months.

Forcibly is being used rather hyperbolically here, don't you think? Some business owners that opened in defiance of local public health orders received fines or license suspensions, that's not equivalent.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#15

Post by JadeNB »

war1025 wrote: post #2

> Especially During COVID Public gatherings are supposedly extremely dangerous right now. The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face. In February the "Philly had a parade, St Louis Stayed home" article was being shared by here and everywhere else. Fr…

> The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face.

Wait a minute, who is suddenly for mass protests? Well, the protestors are, obviously, at least in the sense that they think that they are necessary, but they're not the ones who issued the shelter-in-place orders or who can repeal them. Those orders (now lifted in many places) were issued by governors and mayors, and I have not heard any statement from those officials indicating support for the act of the protests. I have heard support for the cause of the protest, and I have heard them urging people to use masks and respect social distancing as much as possible while protesting, but those seem to fall short of being 'for' the protests themselves.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#16

Post by koheripbal »

JadeNB wrote: post #10
war1025 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't care if there's a pandemic or not There are many people that don't care if there is a pandemic of not. They were forcibly kept away from their jobs and families for three months.

I think that 'forcibly' is a bad choice of words for a legal order that people could, and some did, ignore without serious consequence, and definitely without response by force—witness the 'liberate' protests—when compared to the literal and illegal use of force that the current protests are addressing, which have themselves been met in many places with force (as, for example, this very article discusses).

Businesses were shut down, by law. Some that stayed open in defiance of the law were fined and shuttered by the government.

It most certainly was not optional.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#17

Post by jolmg »

mc32 wrote: post #9
jolmg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that addressing police brutality is more important than stopping COVID-19 spread which is more important than going to work and visiting families.

You can’t protest if you’re sick though. So I get it it’s a short term push to get recognition but if the pandemic is as bad as they say it means many people will be hospitalized or worse. Of course it’s a devils bargain, damnned if you do, damnned if you don’t, but it’s still present.

> You can’t protest if you’re sick though.

I'm not sure if you mean "they can't join the protests when sick" or "they can't protest getting sick from doing this". For the former, I imagine those that are technically can if they really want to. For the latter, those that aren't are seemingly willing to take the risk of getting sick in order to help address this.

> it means many people will be hospitalized or worse.

Yes, they seem willing to risk that consequence.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#18

Post by aphextron »

koheripbal wrote: post #13
vore wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests that police brutality is a horrible forever unaddressed injustice that doesn't care if there's a pandemic or not?

Police Brutality isn't a new problem. They should have waited until covid-19 was gone. Now we're likely to see a 2nd peak because of these protests.

>Police Brutality isn't a new problem. They should have waited until covid-19 was gone.

This wouldn't be happening in a world with 4% unemployment. But 20 million Americans are now out of work, stuck at home, and pissed off. Not to mention without the usual distractions of sports or live entertainment. When the bread and circuses break down, this is the result.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#19

Post by colechristensen »

war1025 wrote: post #2

> Especially During COVID Public gatherings are supposedly extremely dangerous right now. The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face. In February the "Philly had a parade, St Louis Stayed home" article was being shared by here and everywhere else. Fr…

Or, people aren't rational and do whatever feels most right to them at any specific moment.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#20

Post by jolmg »

war1025 wrote: post #8
jolmg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that addressing police brutality is more important than stopping COVID-19 spread which is more important than going to work and visiting families.

And that's a value judgement they can make. The issue is that ordering was different for millions of people and they didn't get a choice in the matter.

> issue is that ordering was different

No, it's not. The ones that are protesting are also being ordered to disperse and go back home. The reason they're not is because they're disobeying.

For those that aren't explicitly ordered, it's because it's pointless, given that civil disobedience is in the nature of protests.

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