How much do we need the police? • Hacker News Board

Re: How much do we need the police?

#441

Post by JPKab » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

kolinko wrote: post #360

mythrwy wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... I don't know if this includes deaths by things like choking or beating. If this is correct, death by cop is actually pretty rare. Not bitten by shark rare, but maybe in the magnitude of fatally falling off a ladder rare. Which of course isn't to say harassment or abuse by cop is also rare. Nor to say there isn't racial disparity because the chart clearly…

Depends on your benchmark. US Police kills 1000 people a year, in 40M Poland our Police kills 1-2 people per year. In 70M Germany it’s around 6-10. So it’s around 20-100x more per capita than it could be.

I'm not familiar with the nature of crime in either Germany or Poland. Do either country have widespread gun ownership like the United States does?

In the United States when you look at the data that is posted in my previous comment you will see that the vast majority of police shootings involve an armed suspect.

However even if you only look at data on unarmed suspects I highly suspect that the US has a higher per capita rate than either Germany or Poland.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#442

Post by dependenttypes » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:44 PM UTC

kolinko wrote: post #346

geofft wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent, But, for instance, while private citizens may have guns for self-defense, they're unlikely to have tear gas, rubber bullets, armored vehicles, Stingrays, etc. And community watches that are run by actual community members are likely to have a very different set of priorities from a professional police force. I'm not at all saying that this by itself would eliminate racially-disproportionate violence d…

Have you ever lived in a country that has a well functioning, nonviolent Police? E.g. somewhere in Europe? Have you ever lived in a country where people don’t have weapons? It is like night and day really - I never heard of a shooting in my neighborhood, and when Police shoots someone unarmed by accident, it is nationwide news (in a nation of 40M, I remember one situation happening a few years back). edit: I found so…

> Have you ever lived in a country that has a well functioning, nonviolent Police? E.g. somewhere in Europe?

I know for a fact that the police in Germany, Italy, Spain, and the Balkan countries is extremely shitty. You do not need an armed police in order for them to be violent.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#443

Post by clairity » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #30

clairity wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we should convert 80% of cops with guns to investigators, and civics officers who teach civics and encourage civility in the communities in which they live. we don’t need that many cops with guns on the street, as there’s very little violent crime relatively speaking.

If you believed such a role was appropriate to establish in society, why on earth would you want the police doing it?

taking your question in good faith, it's not literally taking the same people and changing their uniforms and job duties from one day to the next. it's taking the funding for cops-with-guns and reallocating that to civics officers with knowledge and charisma.

civics officers would encourage civic knowledge, pride and engagement, and would only be enforcers at the thinnest of margins. they'd teach people about how government works and and what help is available, rather than being antagonistic.

also, investigation--solving harder, bigger crimes--should get more resources relative to enforcement, which tends to be directed at insignificant crimes of (opportunistic) desperation rather than crippling, serial crimes like corruption and embezzlement.

it's a focus on encouraging trust and cooperation rather than safety and paranoia.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#444

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #341

tathougies wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gangs aren't affected by gun control though -- most gang guns are gotten illegally (when they're not being supplied by the government of course). Moreover, states with strict gun control, like California, have more gangs than others. Chicago used to ban guns entirely but its murder rate was higher than today, when guns are allowed (by the Supreme Court). And inequality is not what leads to gang violence. We have less…

Why are American gangs not affected by gun control but European gangs are ? Is this some sort of American exceptionalism ?

Because america is next to Mexico which is actually quite literally run by warlords. Did you read the article I sent you?

Central and South America have the highest murder rates in the world. Of course that spills over into the US. Turkey, Russia dont come close and those are the land borders of europe.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#445

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:54 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #350

dmode wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are American gangs not affected by gun control but European gangs are ? Is this some sort of American exceptionalism ?

I've noticed over time that things that can be done elsewhere on the world are impossible in America according to most Americans. I even particularly like America because it has more of the sort of liberty I like but it also has some of the most unbelievable defensiveness. For years, fibre was impossible in America. Turns out it wasn't. For years, bicycling was impossible in America. Turns out it isn't. Nothing is re…

Okay great. Then why does California a state with severe gun restrictions have such a problem with gang violence? Can you please explain?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#446

Post by dependenttypes » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #374

epistasis wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but imagine a situation where this is a huge step up in fairness and justice from what you currently experience everyday! Many people currently live under tyranny and terror worse than an HOA police force.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-fa... This is the kind of behavior that I expect to see widely across America if we rely on random citizens to patrol instead of police. He was told by 911 to stay in his car, but instead he got out and shot Treyvon in supposed "self defense".

> but instead he got out and shot Treyvon in supposed "self defense".

The wikipedia article says that he was injured and that he got into a conflict with him before shooting. He claims that this was while he was returning to his car and he was attacked by him. If this is true I see no misconduct by him.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#447

Post by dmode » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:03 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #444

dmode wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are American gangs not affected by gun control but European gangs are ? Is this some sort of American exceptionalism ?

Because america is next to Mexico which is actually quite literally run by warlords. Did you read the article I sent you? Central and South America have the highest murder rates in the world. Of course that spills over into the US. Turkey, Russia dont come close and those are the land borders of europe.

Europe is a boat ride away from extremely poor African countries that are run over by gun toting rebel groups

Re: How much do we need the police?

#448

Post by coliveira » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

bluedays wrote: post #425

coliveira wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrary to popular belief, pacific demonstrations have very little power. That's why riots are an essencial tool for demonstrations like the ones we're seeing these days. People like to give examples such as the civil rights' movement as the effectiveness of pacific demonstration, but that was just a good tactical decision made by Dr. King and other organizers, since they knew that police was ready to kill them at a…

Dude, you can't even spell. I'm not going to take what you're saying as intelligent when you can't even spell essential.

Yeah, little "dude", since you certainly never misspelled anything, right?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#449

Post by P_I_Staker » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #347

elliotec wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. Prioritize rape/violence/home invasion, deprioritize protests/drugs/etc., and as you say punish offenders. This is obvious.

>This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. >deprioritize protests/drugs/etc Yeah, already done that. And it's miserable . My parents came to visit (from the midwest and right before the pandemic) and were absolutely appalled at seeing needles on the street when we went out to dinner. I don't blame them, really. I blame the people who pretend that shrugging at enforcing drug laws is some sort of…

Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. That's not political nihilism. I don't really consider seeing a needle in the street a "third world standard of living". I don't enjoy seeing litter, but it's a reality of living in an urban area. There's beer cans, and yes people toss bottles to, so there's shards of glass in the street, and it's not "safe" or harmless.

Still, I never once considered rounding up all the drinkers, sending them to jail, then disallowing them from ever participating in most of society for the rest of their lives. That's without even considering all the collateral damage, and people hassled for no reason. Worst of all IMO, is a classic critique that dates back to prohibition: Prohibition laws breed contempt for law and order. Peaceful citizens become criminals. Cops become fascists, rounding people up for no reason.

So, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to want to try something else. I'm unconvinced that there's no other option, or middle ground to deal with externalities. I also don't think you're being oppressed, or "living like you're in a third world country", because you sometimes see what's really going on in your city. Perhaps your efforts would be better spent on an anti-littering campaign.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#450

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #445

renewiltord wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed over time that things that can be done elsewhere on the world are impossible in America according to most Americans. I even particularly like America because it has more of the sort of liberty I like but it also has some of the most unbelievable defensiveness. For years, fibre was impossible in America. Turns out it wasn't. For years, bicycling was impossible in America. Turns out it isn't. Nothing is re…

Okay great. Then why does California a state with severe gun restrictions have such a problem with gang violence? Can you please explain?

I don’t think there’s profit to be made there so I haven’t given it much attention. But the patterns of reasons you’re using match the just-so stories that are common in these discussions that make facile models of the world. In my experience these models are generally wrong. So I’m content walking away without adjusting my priors because the work/reward is low.