How much do we need the police? • Hacker News Board

Re: How much do we need the police?

#371

Post by charliebrownau » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

If anything this shows the amount of criminals in the area

and what happens when good people in the community are unable to defend - themself, town, community and business's with Weapons/GUNS

Re: How much do we need the police?

#372

Post by asdff » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:40 AM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #11

I'm heartened by city council members Tammy Morales in Seattle, Nury Martinez in LA, and Steve Fletcher in Minneapolis who are all seriously discussing significantly defunding or disbanding their police departments. While we've had protests like this in the past, I don't think I've ever seen so many places seriously asking how much we need our police, and how equipped they should be. Clearly, the answer is that polic…

I'm all in favor of disarming the police. If they need a gun, they can call it in. However, a city like LA would be nuts without cops, if anything there should be more. The situation on the street is not safe without some authority patrolling and making sure people don't get rowdy and heated; there are just too many people out of their mind on meth. I've seen someone get pushed and yelled at on the expo line for making eye contact with another dude who was tweaking on something, the confrontation ended when the victim pulled a knife on the guy and backed up to the other side of the train car.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#373

Post by AdrianB1 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:41 AM UTC

metrokoi wrote: post #301

geofft wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's a terrible experiment! For one, you're in a situation where the only people with serious weapons are criminals and police (because non-criminals could generally trust the police to handle violence for them). You haven't armed the populace, you haven't set up civilian watches, you haven't done any of the things that would happen in a society actually set up to be sustainably police-free. You took a society…

Arming the populace? Having a bunch of untrained people police their own neighborhoods sounds like a recipe for disaster. Trump supporters and racists would be watching neighborhoods with lethal weapons. I'm not saying that Trump supporters should not be able to, but the anti-police crowd seem to not think far enough ahead to realize that taking power away from police and giving it to the people means giving it to pe…

In rural areas the population is already armed, even for the purpose of hunting and protecting the farms from animals damaging crops and livestock. If I read the numbers correctly the state with the least regulated gun policies is the second most safe in USA.

Also Trump supporters don't equal Pro 2A. Most of my USA based colleagues are Pro 2A, including the Biden supporters, and most are not Trump fans.

Also most people that I know with gun permits in my country (extremely rare) are more knowledgeable on laws than most policemen; same for gun training, we do train policemen in the range and we see that.

In a neighborhood where people are armed there is no need to patrol on the streets. Guess what is the place around the gun range that is never robbed? The gun range. People don't take risks, they pick the easy targets, gun-free zones are perfect targets for people that ignore the laws.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#374

Post by wccrawford » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:42 AM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #353

erichocean wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And community watches that are run by actual community members are likely to have a very different set of priorities from a professional police force. Imagine an armed and dangerous HOA, functioning as its own "community policy force." What fresh hell is this?

Sure, but imagine a situation where this is a huge step up in fairness and justice from what you currently experience everyday! Many people currently live under tyranny and terror worse than an HOA police force.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-fa...

This is the kind of behavior that I expect to see widely across America if we rely on random citizens to patrol instead of police. He was told by 911 to stay in his car, but instead he got out and shot Treyvon in supposed "self defense".

Re: How much do we need the police?

#375

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:43 AM UTC

torb-xyz wrote: post #311

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

Anyone I've talked with that believed in abolishing police understood that it would need to be replaced by some kind of other institution. Suddenly removing the police like that is therefore not a valid way to consider the abolishment of police in general. I'm a bit surprised by someone who's familiar with an anarchist theory to be this naive about this stuff. Today in Rojava (society in Syria based in part on anarch…

It is worth noting so, that of all western style democracies only the US has the kind of problems with police violence. Not saying other countries don't have police violence, but not even close to the degree the US has.

So instead of looking at alternative societies in Syria, how about looking at European countries and the way they are policing? Or Canada?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#376

Post by asdff » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:46 AM UTC

always_left wrote: post #28

Does anyone ever take justice into their own hands? Not recommending it, but my neighbor's car was stolen so I went out and found it for them that day. It was reported missing but I had a feeling it wasn't going to be actively looked for due to the severity of the crime.

When my bike got clipped I thought about walking around the neighborhood encampents to go looking for it, but someone stealing a bike is feeding an addiction to some type of beast. If I step between a mouse and its cheese, I'm liable to get bit and maybe even some bloodborne disease, all for a couple hundred dollar bike. Realized my loss and moved on.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#377

Post by twic » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:52 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #350

dmode wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are American gangs not affected by gun control but European gangs are ? Is this some sort of American exceptionalism ?

I've noticed over time that things that can be done elsewhere on the world are impossible in America according to most Americans. I even particularly like America because it has more of the sort of liberty I like but it also has some of the most unbelievable defensiveness. For years, fibre was impossible in America. Turns out it wasn't. For years, bicycling was impossible in America. Turns out it isn't. Nothing is re…

Profitable home delivery of groceries really does seem to be impossible in America, for some reason!

Re: How much do we need the police?

#378

Post by chrismcb » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:53 AM UTC

holler wrote: post #303

ncallaway wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some protestors have been completely peaceful. Some entire protests have been completely peaceful. And some of those completely peaceful protests have still met tear gas, and/or pepper spray. For example, see the protest in DC that was peaceful and broken up before curfew. Is your assertion that nationwide, over 9 days, there hasn't been any peaceful protests?

If we’re focused on Seattle still, and basing this off the news from the past few days, it certainly was hard to notice any peaceful protesting occurring. Of course many people were peaceful, but amidst scenes of people busting through every retailer’s window downtown, looting stores until they were bare, while dozens of cars burned in the street...

Almost all of the protests in Seattle have been peaceful, until the cops started spaying made and throwing flash grenades into the crowd. Yes there has been some looting, generally away from the protestors, because the police are busy.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#379

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:53 AM UTC

frostburg wrote: post #357

remarkEon wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. >deprioritize protests/drugs/etc Yeah, already done that. And it's miserable . My parents came to visit (from the midwest and right before the pandemic) and were absolutely appalled at seeing needles on the street when we went out to dinner. I don't blame them, really. I blame the people who pretend that shrugging at enforcing drug laws is some sort of…

Drug addiction is best treated as a public health issue, not a criminal one. You're just observing the effects of a lack of rug sweeping.

Stealing bikes and breaking into cars, or worse, to buy drugs, is when it becomes a criminal issue.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#380

Post by taneq » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:54 AM UTC

wolf550e wrote: post #276

ncallaway wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demand in Seattle to defund the police isn't calling to totally remove funding. It's calling for a 50% reduction in the budget. Just a heads up that "defund the police" isn't actually that different from "we need to rethink the roles where we have police"

If their budget is reduced, the police will choose where to cut services in such a way as to inflict maximum fear in the population, to cause their budget to be restored. They will, for example, say they cannot investigate the rape of a white woman, supposedly because lack of funds. But they will have plenty of funds to harass poor and non-white people for maybe smoking pot, but mostly for being poor and/or non-white…

> If their budget is reduced, the police will choose where to cut services in such a way as to inflict maximum fear in the population, to cause their budget to be restored.

Sounds like they're a protection racket, no different from the Mafia.

The issue here clearly isn't funding. The issue is control. Police in the U.S. have been allowed to become an autocratic state in their own right, and it is this state which needs to be dismantled.