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How much do we need the police?

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Re: How much do we need the police?

#361

Post by [deleted] »

ncallaway wrote: post #267
rayiner wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that’s just the short term. Look at places like Somalia or Afghanistan to see what happens when law and order breaks down in a systematic way. The issue isn’t even just “crime” in the sense of robbery, etc. When there is no police, organized crime can take over. When we lived in Bangladesh in the 1980s, a minibus full of criminals showed up at the gate of our house. (This being Dhaka in the 1980s, we had a brick…

The demand in Seattle to defund the police isn't calling to totally remove funding. It's calling for a 50% reduction in the budget. Just a heads up that "defund the police" isn't actually that different from "we need to rethink the roles where we have police"

[deleted]

Re: How much do we need the police?

#362

Post by rytor718 »

Please keep in mind that the current protests are only happening because of police. There is a point when they're not the agents of order and safety, but the agents of violence and disorder. And yes, we ought to question the value of any police force that kills citizens so regularly -- so normally -- that it's shocking if someone can even ask whether a cop should be charged with murder after murdering someone on camera. Keep in mind Floyd isn't the only person to be killed by cops this month, or last month or last year. This is very, very normal. We're not better for it or safer for it, so yes it may be true right now that we're more safe without them and less safe with them.

And I'm not really arguing either side so much as pointing out that the current disorder and violence is in response to regular police violence. Regular.

No place breaks down due simply to an absence of police. But I've heard of police states -- and those aren't something anyone talking about the merits of order and safety should be arguing for.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#363

Post by watwut »

zarkov99 wrote: post #113
josephg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s made much more true because that’s the image police forces in America have of themselves. “We’re here to beat up the bad guys”. Police here in Australia are far from perfect, but they are much more seen as part of the community. They don’t even carry firearms any more. In Australia I wouldn’t hesitate to contact the police or talk to them on the street if something happened. (Just like I wouldn’t hesit…

Police in the small US college town I live in is pretty much part of the community. I personally know many of the officers - and they are fine people. Even so, they are still a target for antifa agit-prop tactics. The playbook is always the same, catch the one cop that said or did, or appeared to say or do, the wrong thing, once, and you can tarnish the entire department, the entire profession, forever. And it works.…

The actual accountability and check on power+conduct is important for any group of people. Exposing cops who did something wrong, even if they are fine people to their friends is important.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#364

Post by dang »

teddyh wrote: post #345
dang wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've banned this account for trolling. Doing this will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I fail to see the trolling you evidently can see. Can you explain?

Moderation is guesswork, and if I guessed wrong I'll be happy to apologize and correct the error, but I think the username "remember_george" is sarcastic and the comment was intended to be demeaning. "Seeing how", "I bet", and "didn't even" is language one would more likely use to sarcastically mock something than to make a straightforward point. And...what is the straightforward point supposed to be, anyway? And why post it just here? And why with that username? The odds are low that this comment was meant sincerely.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#365

Post by 0x8BADF00D »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #342
metrokoi wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather have a group of people trained on how to apprehend criminals with the minimum force necessary and with rules and regulations to follow than have untrained, armed citizens going to retrieve their goods. Would the farmer have the freedom to search any property they please? A criminal would not let the farmer search his property, and if the farmer insisted with force he could be threatening an innocent pe…

First of all, I want to say that I don't support roving gangs of mercenaries. But just as a thought experiment... which do you think is likely to kill more innocent people: roving gangs of mercenaries in a stateless community where most are armed or the US government? edit: changed vigilantes to mercenaries for consistency

We have numerous examples in US history of that. What do you think they did in the Old West? The sheriff was often outmanned and undergunned, so nobody wanted the position. The bandits were so powerful that ordinary citizens had to be called upon to catch criminals. Not to mention, there were hostile Native American tribes that wanted to scalp you.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#366

Post by virgilp »

geofft wrote: post #236
BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

But that's a terrible experiment! For one, you're in a situation where the only people with serious weapons are criminals and police (because non-criminals could generally trust the police to handle violence for them). You haven't armed the populace, you haven't set up civilian watches, you haven't done any of the things that would happen in a society actually set up to be sustainably police-free. You took a society…

> You haven't armed the populace, you haven't set up civilian watches, you haven't done any of the things that would happen in a society actually set up to be sustainably police-free

It's amazing how a population that suffers heavily from wide firearm availability (the only civilized country where you semi-regularly have school massacres) thinks that the solution to anything can be "more guns for everyone".

People are often irresponsible, irrational, intoxicated, etc. Making lethal force easily available to everyone won't solve your safety issues - will only make them worse. I think a big reason why cops are so violent in the US is that they need to be - any bum can have a gun and might kill them; that's not a concern for people in Europe, so police can be slightly more relaxed when dealing with a minority that is known to have above-average stats for criminals & general violence (e.g. gypsy here; yes, they may face many discrimination issues that black people face in US, but nobody shoots them just because they have the wrong skin color)

Re: How much do we need the police?

#367

Post by watwut »

mythrwy wrote: post #285
missosoup wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes most police in AU carry a firearm. No they don't have a 'decent rep' for brutality, whatever that means. Comparing AU police to US police is insane. Every encounter with police like a traffic stop in the US is a nonzero chance of getting killed. That's not at all comparable to Australia where there are no tasers and the use of lethal force is in the single digits per year nationally. The view you're presenting is…

Cops fatally shoot about 1000 people in the US every year from what I read. The US has over 300 million people. Not nonzero but... well, you can do the math.

When I traveled to Unites States, I was told that if cops stop me, I have to keep hands on wheel otherwise they might shoot me. I got no similar advice anywhere else. In other western countries, I know cops wont shoot me if I move hands around noramly.

This sort of thing add to the perception of American police.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#368

Post by VonGallifrey »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #105
derekp7 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it would work to have the police split into two separate units (kind of like how the swat team is separate). So you have a general response police unit, which is unarmed or lightly armed (taser / nightstick, etc). They would respond to most situations, and would be highly trained in de-escalation techniques. Then have the backup units be the muscle. In situations that they feel are dicey, the backup could…

" So you have a general response police unit, which is unarmed or lightly armed (taser / nightstick, etc). They would respond to most situations, and would be highly trained in de-escalation techniques. Then have the backup units be the muscle. In situations that they feel are dicey, the backup could show up at the same time, but hang back unless they are needed. " That's how the Brits do it and I think the Germans t…

Police in Germany definitely are armed. As far as I know they always have a Pistol and they might have less lethal options as well. Sometimes you see them with a MP5 as well which is a compact submachine gun.

I do agree with the training in de-escalation though. German Police has a much more extensive training then the US.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#369

Post by watwut »

tathougies wrote: post #81
jbay808 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing of the police seems very strange to my Canadian sensibilities. I'm curious about whether Americans largely agree with this description.

Canadians do not have violent warlords on their streets. You don't understand what it's like to live in our (mainly South Western) cities, and live with threats of drive-by shootings, vandalism, and getting caught in gunfire. My dad worked driving around downtown LA and surrounds for 20 some odd years and there was more than a few times he was caught in gang-based gunfire. This was in the 80s and 90s mostly, and thin…

The actual violent crime is not overall that much higher in United States. Majority of homicides are people who know each other, killing family and friends.

I dont think actual crime situation in United States explains tanks and no knock raids.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#370

Post by haecceity »

tom_ wrote: post #84
haecceity wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought British police mostly don't carry firearms.

They don’t, but Australia is not part of Britain, so different rules may apply.

I think it's funny that people are so focused in correcting him about Australia that they miss the point of his argument.
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