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How much do we need the police?

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Re: How much do we need the police?

#101
post #57
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing of the police seems very strange to my Canadian sensibilities. I'm curious about whether Americans largely agree with this description.

As an expat Canadian living in a suburban county in the US, my personal interactions with the police here have always been cordial engagements as peacekeepers and caretakers of the community. I have called for welfare checks on neighbors, called the sheriff when I found a garage opener on the street, that kind of thing. Of course they were present in the aftermath of a case when a highschool kid entered a house and s…

[deleted]

Re: How much do we need the police?

#102
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s made much more true because that’s the image police forces in America have of themselves. “We’re here to beat up the bad guys”. Police here in Australia are far from perfect, but they are much more seen as part of the community. They don’t even carry firearms any more. In Australia I wouldn’t hesitate to contact the police or talk to them on the street if something happened. (Just like I wouldn’t hesit…

I don't know what part of Australia you're in, but literally every cop I've ever encountered here carries a firearm. They also have a pretty decent rep for brutality themselves, particularly if you're indigenous. So you are presenting a very misleading view.

Yes most police in AU carry a firearm.

No they don't have a 'decent rep' for brutality, whatever that means. Comparing AU police to US police is insane. Every encounter with police like a traffic stop in the US is a nonzero chance of getting killed. That's not at all comparable to Australia where there are no tasers and the use of lethal force is in the single digits per year nationally.

The view you're presenting is significantly more divorced from reality than the GP. Just like GP said, calling the police in the states even if you need their aid, is a gamble. In Australia I would not hesitate to call or interact with the police under any circumstances. Even in the immediate vicinity the Bourke St incident, I felt safe approaching and interacting with the SRG guys decked out in their military gear and automatic rifles. They went out of their way to make sure me and people with me got a safe corridor to leave the area. In the states, that'd be about a 100% chance of getting shot.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#103

If you defund the police but keep them around (after all, they are necessary), won't that just force them to self-fund by seeking funding from corrupt sources such as civil asset forfeiture and drug busts? Isn't this already a solved problem in other parts of the world, such as Britain, Ireland, Norway, Iceland and New Zealand, where most officers are unarmed when they are on patrol? Why can't we learn from other cou…

>won't that just force them to self-fund by seeking funding from corrupt sources such as civil asset forfeiture and drug busts?

Does the police force operate like an autonomous organization or something? Is there a reason why the city can't institute a policy like "all civil forfeitures" go toward social outreach programs only?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#104
post #57
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing of the police seems very strange to my Canadian sensibilities. I'm curious about whether Americans largely agree with this description.

As an expat Canadian living in a suburban county in the US, my personal interactions with the police here have always been cordial engagements as peacekeepers and caretakers of the community. I have called for welfare checks on neighbors, called the sheriff when I found a garage opener on the street, that kind of thing. Of course they were present in the aftermath of a case when a highschool kid entered a house and s…

As an american living in Canada, I can assure you it's not much better here -- cops are generally cordial to my white affluent self, but black and indigenous people, especially those in poverty, are not served by this justice system.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#105
post #83
post #3

I know folks don't always click through, so I'll highlight what I found most insightful: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use…

I wonder if it would work to have the police split into two separate units (kind of like how the swat team is separate). So you have a general response police unit, which is unarmed or lightly armed (taser / nightstick, etc). They would respond to most situations, and would be highly trained in de-escalation techniques. Then have the backup units be the muscle. In situations that they feel are dicey, the backup could…

" So you have a general response police unit, which is unarmed or lightly armed (taser / nightstick, etc). They would respond to most situations, and would be highly trained in de-escalation techniques. Then have the backup units be the muscle. In situations that they feel are dicey, the backup could show up at the same time, but hang back unless they are needed. "

That's how the Brits do it and I think the Germans too.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#106
In the corporate setting, if a large org is deemed incompetent, a common solution would be to mark that org as second class and create another similar org with the first class status. The second class org would get funding cut, no raises, no interesting work. The first class org would be the opposite. A transition is possible via an interview that filters out the incompetent types. And one day the second class org is told that there is no more work for them left and they have 1-2 months to find an internal role or move on.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#107
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing of the police seems very strange to my Canadian sensibilities. I'm curious about whether Americans largely agree with this description.

Canadians do not have violent warlords on their streets. You don't understand what it's like to live in our (mainly South Western) cities, and live with threats of drive-by shootings, vandalism, and getting caught in gunfire. My dad worked driving around downtown LA and surrounds for 20 some odd years and there was more than a few times he was caught in gang-based gunfire. This was in the 80s and 90s mostly, and thin…

[deleted]

Re: How much do we need the police?

#108
Not hard to see this article is written entirely from an American perspective with zero consideration of what policing looks like in other countries.

I found this part in particular egregious:

> Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use violence in situations where the average citizen would be arrested.

Look at American policing from a Northern European perspective in general and a Norwegian perspective in particular it is pretty clear to me what some of the problems are.

American police has VERY SHORT TRAINING which from what I have read is very focused on the use of violence. Even the rule of engagement emphasize shock, terror and control, rather than de-escalation.

You become a police in the US in mere weeks in a very military style Academy.

In Norway and I believe much of Europe police training is a lot like taking a Bachelor degree running several years. Training emphasize a lot on social work, psychology, human rights, understanding behavior of people with mental problems, the criminal mind etc.

What I have seen from US police recruitment videos seems to be that they are essentially recruiting some sort of soldier. In Norway it is much more like recruiting a social worker. For instance far more women work in the police here. And I know from people who have worked in security that a common strategy here is to pair up women with bigger guys because women are often good at defusing situations. They often make people calm down more easily. Big testosterone brutes shouting loudly, don't calm people down.

The US has a violent police force because that is how they are trained to be. That is the kind of people they are recruiting and that is how they get equipped.

It seems profoundly wrong to just sort of "GIVE UP" on policing all together when there are so many flaws in how it is done.

It does not mean I entirely disagree. I do in fact agree that policing in the US covers far too many areas. People call cops for things that would be unthinkable here in Norway. The barrier to calling the police in the US seems exceedingly low.

Like you see minor disorder in a class causing police to be called. Police is called to handle situations a teacher should handle.

And yes the US does of course use its police and prison system as a compensation for having no functioning welfare state. Because the US does not want to pay money to take care of poor people they instead pay triple to have the police handle problems a much cheaper civilians agency could have handled.

But I guess in the US it is much easier to get funding for police than for "soft" government type of jobs. Until Americans stop hating and distrusting government so much I am not sure how you solve that.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#109
post #40

It is reasonable to consider taking away some responsibilities from sworn peace officers (armed police). Many US cities have unarmed units for traffic tickets and some other things. But a problem arises when community outreach or community contacts by non-police have a risk of violence associated with them. Especially contacts with people with a history of mental health related violence. Or, domestic violence interve…

Social workers are very often sent to help people experiencing mental health crises, including those with a history of violence. Particularly in countries other than the US it’s very much the norm. It’s not a theoretical situation. It sounds like you’re speculating but you could read about it or talk to people about it.

Good, I know it happens and I hope to see more of it.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#110
post #73
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian police are no different. Living under a dangerous illusion.

I'd like to know why you think so. In my experience, at least in Vancouver, police tend to use violence and force as absolutely the last resort, and generally play a lot more of "social worker" type of role, especially when it comes to handling issues associated with drug addiction in the downtown east side. But I could be very wrong so I'm interested in hearing other viewpoints. Or maybe you're thinking of different…

There’s no contradiction between abusing you wrote and police being violence workers. Police cannot do their jobs without resort to the threat of violence and occasionally actual violence. The degree of restraint varies wildly between different forces but that does not. When traffic wardens, paramedics, social workers or firefighters need someone to do legal violence they don’t do it themselves, they call the police. They are one of the forces the state has delegated its monopoly on the legitimate use of force to, along with the military. They are not primarily in the business of violence, like the military, but they can’t do their jobs without the capacity to be violent either.
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