How much do we need the police? • Hacker News Board

Re: How much do we need the police?

#121

Post by missosoup » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:30 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #114

missosoup wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes most police in AU carry a firearm. No they don't have a 'decent rep' for brutality, whatever that means. Comparing AU police to US police is insane. Every encounter with police like a traffic stop in the US is a nonzero chance of getting killed. That's not at all comparable to Australia where there are no tasers and the use of lethal force is in the single digits per year nationally. The view you're presenting is…

You are also greatly exaggerating the risk to citizens in the USA when calling the police. The risk is not to the caller, the risk is to the alleged criminal that may get manhandled (or shot) way out of proportion to the offense. But you don’t make a mental “death chance calculation” when you call the cops.

> You are also greatly exaggerating the risk to citizens in the USA

"Noor was convicted of third degree murder and second degree manslaughter for killing Ms Damond Ruszczyk just minutes after she called 911 to report a possible sexual assault in the alley behind her Minneapolis home in July 2017."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-08/mohamed-noor-sentence...

> The risk is not to the caller

Just yesterday there was news coverage of a store owner who called police for aid against looters and was attacked and handcuffed by those same police when they arrived on the scene.

Also, incidents like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/26/kazeem-oyen...

Any single one of these stories would provoke a national outcry here. They're unthinkable here. But it's everyday life in the US.

> But you don’t make a mental “death chance calculation” when you call the cops.

Yeah I do. When I was visiting the states my friend was instructing me to do things like turn on my interior car light and slowly put my hands on the steering wheel and do absolutely nothing that could possibly provoke the cop. That sounded fucking insane to me, coming from Australia.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#122

Post by redis_mlc » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:32 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #114

missosoup wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes most police in AU carry a firearm. No they don't have a 'decent rep' for brutality, whatever that means. Comparing AU police to US police is insane. Every encounter with police like a traffic stop in the US is a nonzero chance of getting killed. That's not at all comparable to Australia where there are no tasers and the use of lethal force is in the single digits per year nationally. The view you're presenting is…

You are also greatly exaggerating the risk to citizens in the USA when calling the police. The risk is not to the caller, the risk is to the alleged criminal that may get manhandled (or shot) way out of proportion to the offense. But you don’t make a mental “death chance calculation” when you call the cops.

Good luck with that.

Because domestic calls are so unpredictable in a gun-owning society, callers can expect to see a drawn gun pointing at you.

The police often do no-knock residential intrusions, while throwing a grenade into the house.

(For non-US readers: I'm not exaggerating. "Dirty Harry" movies are documentaries about living in the US.)

Re: How much do we need the police?

#123

Post by Tehdasi » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:35 AM UTC

djrobstep wrote: post #62

josephg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s made much more true because that’s the image police forces in America have of themselves. “We’re here to beat up the bad guys”. Police here in Australia are far from perfect, but they are much more seen as part of the community. They don’t even carry firearms any more. In Australia I wouldn’t hesitate to contact the police or talk to them on the street if something happened. (Just like I wouldn’t hesit…

I don't know what part of Australia you're in, but literally every cop I've ever encountered here carries a firearm. They also have a pretty decent rep for brutality themselves, particularly if you're indigenous. So you are presenting a very misleading view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

US 30.4 vs Australia 1.7

So yeah, there are are issues with police in Australia, but the issues are far more extreme in the US.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#124

Post by p15i » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:35 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #32

js2 wrote: post #3

I know folks don't always click through, so I'll highlight what I found most insightful: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use…

I think that’s made much more true because that’s the image police forces in America have of themselves. “We’re here to beat up the bad guys”. Police here in Australia are far from perfect, but they are much more seen as part of the community. They don’t even carry firearms any more. In Australia I wouldn’t hesitate to contact the police or talk to them on the street if something happened. (Just like I wouldn’t hesit…

Based on this comment I can infer two things: 1) You're not aboriginal 2) You've had very limited interactions with police officers

They definitely still carry firearms, and (although they're not as bad as american police) they definitely do abuse their power.

Just this week we had yet another story about this: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/02/video...

Re: How much do we need the police?

#125

Post by tialaramex » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:37 AM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #105

derekp7 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it would work to have the police split into two separate units (kind of like how the swat team is separate). So you have a general response police unit, which is unarmed or lightly armed (taser / nightstick, etc). They would respond to most situations, and would be highly trained in de-escalation techniques. Then have the backup units be the muscle. In situations that they feel are dicey, the backup could…

" So you have a general response police unit, which is unarmed or lightly armed (taser / nightstick, etc). They would respond to most situations, and would be highly trained in de-escalation techniques. Then have the backup units be the muscle. In situations that they feel are dicey, the backup could show up at the same time, but hang back unless they are needed. " That's how the Brits do it and I think the Germans t…

In Britain the Tazer is considered a firearm (after all you can't have one), and so only trained officers can carry them. A great many officers are so trained, especially in some urban areas, but not all of them by far.

They do all have extensible batons and training in how to use that to defend themselves against somebody who is a bit handy with their fists or waving a blade about while they retreat, as well as training in how to de-escalate.

Even when there's an armed suspect retreating is very often the appropriate thing. Because you've got time and numbers on your side. Why risk getting stabbed (or shot) to make an arrest now, when in the not too distant future the suspect will be asleep and you or your colleagues can trivially disarm them?

There are scenarios when police need an immediate armed intervention, but they just aren't (and shouldn't be) common enough to justify giving every single cop a handgun and the training needed to use it effectively.

Of course the Americans seem to have largely skipped the second part of that, which doesn't help at all.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#126

Post by ryanwaggoner » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:38 AM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #88

gruez wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The police seem like soldiers because we have asked them to fight a war, and we're okay with civilians being collateral damage. A war on... what? Drugs? Gangs? Are those things that can be fought with assault rifles and MRAPs? This whole situation is reminiscent of the wars of vietnam, iraq, and afghanistan.

A war on people shooting each other on our streets? A war on child trafficking? It's not about drugs, it's not about gangs. It's about how both those things lead to homicides and child endangerment. I don't care if a group of kids wants to band together. I don't care if someone wants to take a substance so they can trip. I care when -- in pursuit of those things -- children die, people are beaten and sodomized, sons…

Precisely zero people are out protesting excessive use of force against organized gangs running child prostitution rings.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#127

Post by virmundi » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:39 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #59

PaulKeeble wrote: post #16

The American police force seems to be a catch-all for the vast amount of social problems caused by unequal access to healthcare, limited social security and a host of puritan laws that ignore peoples needs. Making drug users criminals despite the massive numbers of them drives up prices and decreases access causing large amounts of crime out of social problems caused by missing social systems. The drug war has also c…

Agreed drug war is a total failure, policy-wise. Where is the middle ground between criminalizing everything and legalizing everything? Real lives are destroyed by drug abuse and particularly with regards to meth, fentanyl, etc it kills people. I can't imagine a world where we sell these things over the counter. Would that help or hurt communities?

Why make the act of consumption illegal? If I am a functioning alcoholic, and I stay at home and work, no reason to arrest me. Same is true with weed and all the other drugs. If I become a danger while intoxicated, arrest me for that. I don’t need a charge multiplier.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#128

Post by armandososa » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:41 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #3

I know folks don't always click through, so I'll highlight what I found most insightful: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use…

I am from Mexico and --at least in the environment I grew up-- we don't have a positive view of our police. I don't know anybody who thinks of them as heroes. Same with the military.

So I always found it fascinating how the police --and its public perception-- is portrayed in US media.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#129

Post by IggleSniggle » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:42 AM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #10

We certainly need a police force to maintain a level of civilization in a large enough society. But of course, the problem is different: what KIND of policing we need, and how do we provide accountability. Quis custodiet custodes? [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quis_custodiet_ipsos_custodes%... edit: note that the "ipsos" part of the sentence in the wikipedia link is correct, but can be largely omitted. I stu…

I'm a little bit confused by your statement that the ipsos is both a correct quotation but can also be omitted. Is there some translation issue wherein the "ipsos" might or might not be part of the original poem?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#130

Post by toomanybeersies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:46 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #32

js2 wrote: post #3

I know folks don't always click through, so I'll highlight what I found most insightful: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use…

I think that’s made much more true because that’s the image police forces in America have of themselves. “We’re here to beat up the bad guys”. Police here in Australia are far from perfect, but they are much more seen as part of the community. They don’t even carry firearms any more. In Australia I wouldn’t hesitate to contact the police or talk to them on the street if something happened. (Just like I wouldn’t hesit…

> They don’t even carry firearms any more.

That's certainly not the case in Victoria. Aussie cops might be better than American ones, if you're respectable looking, but they still have the same attitude that comes with carrying a gun and being willing and able to use it.

Victoria and NSW police have a bad track record when it comes to abusing their powers and unnecessary violence. Just look at the recent case of an NSW police officer slamming an aboriginal kid to the ground because he'd had a "bad day", or the multiple cases of unlawful strip searches on minors, or the vicpol officers who pepper sprayed and verbally abused a disabled man who they were called to do a welfare check on, or the gay man who's arm they shattered when they raided the wrong house.

The way the police treat you here is highly dependent on how they perceive you. If you ever have the misfortune of getting in trouble with the police, they'll grill you on all sorts of irrelevant shit trying to get a read on you: what suburb you live in, what you do for a job, whether you have a girlfriend/boyfriend. If you're a single man living in a western suburb (in Sydney/Melbourne) with a blue collar job, they'll treat you like dirt. I ended up getting arrested a while back, and when they found out I'm a software engineer living in a more affluent suburb, their demeanour changed instantly.