Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends • Hacker News Board

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#411

Post by downerending » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

deegles wrote: post #112

lanevorockz wrote: post #59

Trying to break the conditioning here but government should always tax in a way that it incentive WORK. The way things are Wealth is no longer being produced, so those who have it will be on top because income will never be enough to prop you up. Therefore we should want a Growth market so that more wealth is produced and risk averse people will still be rich but more people will become as rich as them. To resolve In…

Why should everyone have to work? We are 100% capable of creating a society where everyone's basic needs are met with the automation and technology we have today. The idea that a person is only worth something if they work needs to be deeply reexamined.

I don't know about the should part, but I think everyone needs a reason to get out of bed in the morning, to know that they're contributing to their family and their society as a whole. Imagine how unpleasant it would ultimately be to be told that your needs would be well met, but you would no longer be allowed to carry out productive work.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#412

Post by bhupy » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:12 PM UTC

macd wrote: post #300

bhupy wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it defeats the purpose of a progressive capital gains tax? If the concern is that someone is paying less in tax off $250,000 in capital gains when they realize their wealth than someone who is paid a wage of $250,000, the policy prescription (with which I agree), is to tax $250,000 capital gains like income, I.e. at the top marginal tax rate. What happens if I liquidate $50,000 at a time over the course of 5…

I guess that's a question of what the purpose actually is. If you only take out $50k, then you're living on $50k that year and you pay the same amount of tax as if you had worked a regular job for the same amount. If you want to live a more extravagant lifestyle, you take more out and are taxed more. This could mean that they have $1 million of unrealized gains that year. You're not really able to tax unrealized gain…

> You're not really able to tax unrealized gains most of the time because they could disappear or go negative

Very fair point.

> I'm not entirely convinced that this behavior of living frugally to pay less tax is something we need to 'prevent'.

I think I buy this argument. Another commenter had the suggestioin of dividing the actual realized gain by the number of years the asset was held and assess taxes as if the person made that quotient in income for each of those years. I can't think of anything wrong with this approach.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#413

Post by OrangeKnucles » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #346

gnicholas wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any required credentialing for for garbage collectors? Teachers need to have a bachelors degree and a teaching credential, in most cases.

That's true but the OP just destroyed the only supporting evidence you provided for your point. It might be that teacher's salaries would be below $37k if it didn't require credentialing, but that's not the case, so it's not evidence.

The OP did not destroy the supporting evidence.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#414

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:39 PM UTC

thrwaway69 wrote: post #233

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't they want to make the police even more powerful Civilians outnumber police 500-1. The people who were lead to the guillotines also wanted more police power but you have to throw a bone to the civilians to make them think 'you care'. Here's $2 extra to come to work and risk coronavirus and we totally won't cancel your insurance when you get sick.

Military outnumber people on tanks/drones/helicopers/missiles/secret weapons by 1:0.

Yeah, and a couple of guys with old russian AK-47s in Afghanistan keep fucking us for years.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#415

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #367

s1artibartfast wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Presumably, actively working (like with a job) to generate wealth to invest in other enterprises is 'active participation in the value creation'. This is my exact point. Working (like with a job) creates value. Investing money in a secondary market for stocks generates no value whatsoever. Perhaps it keeps some stock brokers emplayed

> Investing money in a secondary market for stocks generates no value whatsoever. Great, then let's open the primary market (which does generate value) up to individual investors. Unfortunately, this value generating mechanism has been legislated away.

Im open to lessinging restrictings on accredited investors to allow more access. That said, it is worth pointing out that public investors do have access to primary market IPOs.

That said, I do think this is somewhat beside the point of how capital gains should be taxed. I think that stock appreciation profit should be taxed at least as high as personal income.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#416

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:04 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #415

tathougies wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Investing money in a secondary market for stocks generates no value whatsoever. Great, then let's open the primary market (which does generate value) up to individual investors. Unfortunately, this value generating mechanism has been legislated away.

Im open to lessinging restrictings on accredited investors to allow more access. That said, it is worth pointing out that public investors do have access to primary market IPOs. That said, I do think this is somewhat beside the point of how capital gains should be taxed. I think that stock appreciation profit should be taxed at least as high as personal income.

> I think that stock appreciation profit should be taxed at least as high as personal income.

I don't understand why... if I invest money I worked to earn, the profit from putting that money to use should be taxed three times: once while paying the employee the company hires to carry out business, twice after profit is calculated and corporate income tax taken, and then thrice when they tax me for the dividend. Surely twice is enough?

> That said, it is worth pointing out that public investors do have access to primary market IPOs.

Not quite, the have access to the resellers of the primary market IPO. The original buyers of the equity are the underwriters plus whoever registered during the road show -- and they must be accredited I believe.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#417

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:05 AM UTC

B4CKlash wrote: post #313

tathougies wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital gains -- gains from dividends or retained earnings -- are taxed at the corporate tax level before being distributed. I don't think we should retax them at all. I think dividends should be untaxed, and so should the retained earnings portion when selling a stock, but all capital gains attributed purely to increase in speculative valuation can be taxed more, sure. Just a small nitpick.

Is this regardless of legal structure? The choice to incorporate as a corporation comes with a side effect of double taxation but the sole proprietorship doesn't... Not sure where you're based, but do the recent economic events in the US change your tune here at all? Given 'too big to fail' how do you prevent organizations from retaining zero earnings and then asking for loans when liquidity dries up? Double taxation…

I think we should go to a system where companies must pay out all profits to investors, who can choose whether to reinvest or not. Stop the 'too big to fail' mentality -- if companies want money, ask the investors, not the government.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#418

Post by matchbok » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:36 AM UTC

chente wrote: post #358

matchbok wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we aren't. Not even close.

Because of attitudes like this. There is enough money out there to solve many problems but it is hoarded by a certain amount of people and then a bunch of people go around saying, "better things aren't possible."

That's also not true, at all. If you think most jobs can be automated you clearly have no idea what an average job is.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#419

Post by lazulicurio » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

Although the economy is a complex system and it's dangerous to try to over-simplify, my personal opinion is that there are two main and intertwined causes:

1) the cost to participate in the US court system.

2) the abuse of copyright, patent, trademark, and contract[1] law to divorce workers from their experience and treat employee knowledge as company property.

The time and money involved in both pursuing and defending court cases favors larger entities with armies of lawyers and large war chests. Intellectual "property" cases take especially vast amounts of resources because of the fuzziness involved. Meanwhile, treating workers as fungible producers of ideas that can be bought and sold both reduces the bargaining power of individual workers while empowering companies that can amass large portfolios of patents, etc. to use in litigation.

Not sure about reforms for the court system, but patent and copyright reform, combined with restrictions on unfair employment contracts, would go a long way to improving the situation.

[1] NDAs, NCAs, etc.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#420

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

AQuantized wrote: post #370

WalterBright wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of stocks besides mortgage derivatives, and plenty of ordinary people making money off of stocks. If you want to sit on the sidelines because it's too risky for you, that's fine. But don't then complain that others make money on stocks. You, and anyone else, can buy FAANG stocks, index funds, or whatever.

The problem is you need capital to begin with, and the median American barely has enough on hand to cover an emergency, nevermind build significant investments. Many of us might be fortunate to have well paid jobs, and the ability and capital to invest, but it's understandable how someone could view the ability of those with capital to generate further capital without any labour to be unfair.

The median American buys new cars, so they could by a used car and invest the difference.

I've known many people who didn't have any cash on hand, yet lived high on the hog with expensive clothes, new cars, and nice houses. They didn't have any cash on hand because they spent it as fast as possible.