Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends • Hacker News Board

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#381

Post by Leherenn » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

gpanders wrote: post #349

Signez wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To resolve inequality we can't just have the mindset of punish the rich for creating wealth. I would argue that millions (if not billions) are injected into corr^Wlobbying to make sure that we never fully have this mindset, indeed. Meanwhile, the rich are way less taxed (proportionally) than the middle class, and in my opinion, that's a problem that stifle Western economies.

> Meanwhile, the rich are way less taxed (proportionally) than the middle class, and in my opinion, that's a problem that stifle Western economies. Is this actually true? According to the IRS, in 2018 the top 10% of income earners paid 69.47% of total income tax collected. Source: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-...

Apparently, they own 69.4% of the wealth as well, so it would seem to be proportional.

That number feels wrong, given it's exactly the same as the tax one, but I couldn't find another source. https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/19635/wealth-distribution...

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#382

Post by Apes » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #292

chrischen wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you consider that older larger firms can use their position to artificially suppress competition.

The government is the tool used to suppress competition. This is why the solution of making the government ever more powerful isn't going to work.

The situation is far more nuanced. If you said instead "The government can be a tool used to suppress competition," I think most would agree with you.

The distinction is that there are plenty of other tools companies can use to suppress competition, and Government also can be used as a tool to encourage competition.

A strict black and white view point that more government = less competition is absurd.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#383

Post by Aunche » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #350

Aunche wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Earth was government by one big country, you'd have solid point, but most Americans would prefer that the next trillion dollar companies not all be based in India and China. Also, what's best for the workers isn't necessarily what is best for society. Globalization is anti-worker, but it helps the consumer with cheaper prices, the company with extra profits, and developing countries afford what developed countries…

The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere, including in India and China. Perhaps then there would be a world without trillion dollar companies, or maybe the workers can figure out a way. The Mondragon Corporation is a tens-of-billions-dollar workers cooperative [0], for instance. This line of discussion is also making the assumption that what's be…

> The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere

I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Even the far right Ben Shapiro admitted he would support UBI if automation makes most jobs obsolete.

There are smart workers and dumb shareholders, but at the end of the day, people respond to incentives. Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want. This isn't a bad thing, but it comes with a cost. Tesla was able to ramp up production as fast as it did because they didn't need to run every decision past a union.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#384

Post by Frondo » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #292

chrischen wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you consider that older larger firms can use their position to artificially suppress competition.

The government is the tool used to suppress competition. This is why the solution of making the government ever more powerful isn't going to work.

Large businesses use government as a tool to suppress competition, sure.

Take away the government's power to suppress competition, and they'd still have and use many other tools.

Attacking the government is a distraction that's quick, easy, and wrong, like blaming surfers for the tsunami washing over the city.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#385

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

megaman821 wrote: post #344

zby wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know - there are cooperatives - it is not like you need to risk your life to work at one. Somehow they are not that popular. There are also partnerships - which are kind of close to cooperatives, when they employ only the partners and for example outsource office cleaning and stuff. In some industries they do pretty well - for example in law. Why cooperatives do poorly? Maybe people usually are not very good…

> Why cooperatives do poorly? I have seen economist claim that cooperatives tend to be pretty inflexible. Slack was a communication tool for what is now a failed gaming company. If the company was owned by game developers, artists, and story writers, how many of them would have voted to sack themselves and pursue a chat application?

Is that what actually happened? Or did some early Slack employees pivot? Regardless, they would've been a minority of the workforce.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#386

Post by jeffreyrogers » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #108

No sane person should ever listen to Larry Summers again. This weasel looted America; even looted Russia with his pals at Harvard -anything he has to say that isn't a groveling apology for his life of treachery and destruction isn't worth listening to.

It's a bit funny watching all of these economists backpedal and attempt to explain why the policies they promised would be so great for the average American have failed.

Summers has been talking elsewhere about how America needs a new approach to China that is more aligned with America's economic interests. Of course, he doesn't mention that he helped shape America's approach to China originally.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#387

Post by Frondo » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #331

Apocryphon wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, regulatory capture is a problem, but it's somewhat ludicrous to make a blanket statement like "government is the tool used to suppress competition". It's one tool in the toolbox, perhaps a significant one, but hardly the only one.

Health care is another example. The government empowers the AMA to strictly control the number of seats in medical school, thereby restricting the supply of doctors and competition. Licensing, permits, etc, are all ways to limit and prevent competition.

I could ask any surfer on the beach right now and even they'd be able to identify that you've now entered a kind of argumentation where, if government is at all involved, government is the problem, no matter how it's involved.

"The AMA strictly controls the number of seats, and the government has a medical licensing process, therefore the AMA's actions are the government's fault."

Nope.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#388

Post by Frondo » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #333

chrischen wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give an example of this?

When Google tried to lay fiber in various municipalities, they failed because those municipalities would not permit it.

Those were all local municipalities, responsive to their electorate - if the surfers in a community wanted Google fiber huts, they could elect councils who would allow them.

I think it's reasonable that people should have local control over their city environs, even if it means a multinational like Google can't come in and build new infrastructure. It's not a "will of the people, unless Google wants to build fiber huts everywhere" kind of society. Maybe they should just go surfing instead.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#389

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

megaman821 wrote: post #362

devalgo wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the majority of workers prefer workplaces like that then those places will thrive The majority of workers have probably never even heard of worker coops and those that have probably imagine it to be related to socialism and therefore un-American. >So fuller democracy equals government limiting choice, as long as it is your desired choice So more democracy actually == more authoritarian. Astounding logic.

So people are dumb, they just need to listen to me. That is the lazy way. If people are uniformed, we need to do more to inform them. People have power to choose where they work and where they spend their time and money. No one needs to come in and force Amazon into becoming a co-op. If top talent wants to work for co-ops and consumer prefer to get their good from co-ops, Amazon will adapt or die.

There is literally no one advocating for existing corporations to be converted into co-ops. People are saying there should be more co-ops in general, but that can be promoted by creating an environment that's more friendly and attractive to founding co-ops. Or educating people to promote the concept, which is largely unknown to the public. Bringing up the possibility of government force in the discussion is cheap scaremongering. It's like screaming "communism!" in a practical discussion about tax policy.

Though the concept of Amazon becoming a co-op is interesting. One wonders if a majority of Amazon employees organized and wanted that, if there would be even any legal avenue for them to do that. They probably wouldn't have enough shares to make that change from within.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#390

Post by karpierz » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

bedhead wrote: post #363

milesvp wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger problem with estate taxes (and btw estate taxes often imply death taxes in US law) that you may not see is how they effect smaller players. One of the things fueling corporate consolidation is asset liquidation upon death. If I start and own a small company that’s worth $10million, when I die, there is likely a strong desire to liquidate that company in order to allow for some inheritance to multiple peopl…

Personally, I hate the idea of corporate income taxes - they're literally stupid. You can't tax corporations, you can only tax people. At the end of the day, it's always a person somewhere that is paying the tax, whether it's an employee, supplier, shareholder...and that person is already paying their own income taxes. Also, the tax code favors big companies at the expense of small ones, it's a system that can be gam…

Your argument is based on corporations existing within a closed system within the country. But you're ignoring the ability of money leaving the country without being taxed.