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Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

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Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#721

Post by josteink »

jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

> As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police

If it's documented, it should be easy to produce documentation backing that claim, because to me that sounds incredibly unlikely.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#722

Post by lm28469 »

rpiguy wrote: post #390
SirYandi wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protests and riots aren't mutually exclusive

Yes they are. Rioting is not protest. It is criminal activity. Your right to protest, assemble, and speak does not include setting buildings with children inside on fire, murdering pawn shop owners, killing federal officers. I fully support everyone out there marching not committing crimes.

Do you think the french revolution happened peacefully ? Do you think the 2nd amendment is there to peacefully do thing ? Do you think slavery would have ended with peaceful protests ?

Nothing of importance is accomplished peacefully when the other side doesn't have to follow the law and is making the rules on the fly. "B-bu-but the rioters, they're bad =(" yes they are, but they're not the root cause, we have to stop shifting the blame on the very last link of the chain.

> Your right to protest, assemble, and speak does not include setting buildings with children inside on fire, murdering pawn shop owners, killing federal officers.

So what ? What's the biggest issue here ? A system rotten to the very core or people burning stuff because they are fed up of being fucked over and over again. People don't go out and get beat, shot at or tear gassed for fun, if you think they're the issues YOU are the issue. You play the exact same card as most medias, hiding the insanely huge systemic issue behind a "hey look there people are breaking stuff, how dare they!".

The US is turning into a Turkey or Egypt and a lot people seem fine with that, can't wait to read the history books in 50 years.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#723

Post by lenkite »

freeone3000 wrote: post #688
lenkite wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that police are being beaten badly and some killed attempting to stop "protestors", I think it's not surprising that many have chosen to do nothing. Better safe than sorry. Actually, there are dozens of different videos showing police being badly beaten as they attempt to stop vandalism. They just don't make the news as this isn't "progressive". https://abcnews.go.com/US/small-town-police-chief-killed-off…

So is this how we've decided it's going to be? We have all protesters on one side, and if any protesters do anything bad, all get punished? (I also find some moderate irony in you claiming something doesn't make the news, then linking a news website.)

I can link a dozen twitter videos showing all kinds of people getting badly beat up by protestors - none of which ever made the news as it doesn't fit the progressive narrative - but I don't think its worth it. And frankly, it's not hard to find these by yourself.

Everyone now considers general violence and looting as legitimate actions in response to a crime committed by one police officer.

Floyd's death was a tragedy and Derek (the police officer) responsible must pay heavily for it - a 2nd or 3rd degree murder conviction should be handed down to set an example. That case should be scrutinised heavily - and it will be.

But I really don't understand why other people must suffer for one person's crime. The larger focus should be on the US police needing remedial training. Call up congressmen, call up senators. Rioting on the streets doesn't solve anything.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#724

Post by fellowniusmonk »

jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

I am not a bleeding heart liberal in Austin, TX but I live downtown and check it out everyday on my bike, I've seen the same thing.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#725

Post by fellowniusmonk »

ashtonkem wrote: post #674
klyrs wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely you see the very notable difference? Is it the open carry of long guns? Is that what peaceful protesters should use to de-escalate the situation? Makes perfect sense. Cops love guns! Just some cool doodz having a chill gun party, come have a beer and a doobie, officer. Show you mine if you'll show me yours?

I’ve changed my mind on this recently; I suspect that if the protestors today had been heavily armed and armored, the cops would not have attacked them.

I completely agree.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#726

Post by lenkite »

neuronic wrote: post #718
lenkite wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well a police officer was killed trying to prevent a store being looted. But many people here consider looting as justified and warranted in the current circumstances - shop owners should grin and bear it for the greater cause - so it may not be what you are asking for. https://abcnews.go.com/US/small-town-police-chief-killed-off...

Police is actively avoiding helping victims of lootings. Helps to discredit the protests and US police NEVER have an interest in helping anyways. Just from personal experience in ca. 2012, the Binghamton, NY PD has openly threatened to plant drugs on us following a a noise complaint. We talked to officers trying to cooperate but as we weren't following ORDERS such as "Don't scratch your arm right now!" the cops escal…

I agree that the US police in general needs desperate remedial training. My experience with them wasn't pleasant either.

I simply don't agree with the massive general violence and looting going on at the moment. That must be stopped. And police officers attempting to do so are being beaten to death. Some are also being shot while trying to prevent looting. I disagree that all police should pay for one person's crime.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#727

Post by CptFribble »

grupthink wrote: post #705
devin wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I'm sorry, but we have to talk. 1. Rubber bullets kill when they are used in the exact opposite way they were intended. They are not meant to be fired at people's heads. If used, they should be fired at the legs to incapacitate. This is covered in training. I very much doubt it's an accident that they wind up hitting someone in the temple. 2. I did not explicitly authorize escalation between my city police and p…

Good point about context. Are these looters stealing bread for survival? I see them looting jewelers and high end retailers, like Gucci then torching the place. What is the motive? If you believe these looters are doing so for justice, then know that the people who killed Floyd will be tried for their crimes and that you can not cast all law enforcement officers with the same stone. The people that pinned down Floyd…

Martin Luther King Jr. on riots, September 1967

"Urban riots must now be recognized as durable social phenomena. They may be deplored, but they are there and should be understood. Urban riots are a special form of violence. They are not insurrections. The rioters are not seeking to seize territory or to attain control of institutions. They are mainly intended to shock the white community. They are a distorted form of social protest. The looting which is their principal feature serves many functions. It enables the most enraged and deprived Negro to take hold of consumer goods with the ease the white man does by using his purse. Often the Negro does not even want what he takes; he wants the experience of taking. But most of all, alienated from society and knowing that this society cherishes property above people, he is shocking it by abusing property rights. There are thus elements of emotional catharsis in the violent act. This may explain why most cities in which riots have occurred have not had a repetition, even though the causative conditions remain. It is also noteworthy that the amount of physical harm done to white people other than police is infinitesimal and in Detroit whites and Negroes looted in unity.

A profound judgment of today’s riots was expressed by Victor Hugo a century ago. He said, ‘If a soul is left in the darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but he who causes the darkness.’

The policymakers of the white society have caused the darkness; they create discrimination; they structured slums; and they perpetuate unemployment, ignorance and poverty. It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society. When we ask Negroes to abide by the law, let us also demand that the white man abide by law in the ghettos. Day-in and day-out he violates welfare laws to deprive the poor of their meager allotments; he flagrantly violates building codes and regulations; his police make a mockery of law; and he violates laws on equal employment and education and the provisions for civic services. The slums are the handiwork of a vicious system of the white society; Negroes live in them but do not make them any more than a prisoner makes a prison. Let us say boldly that if the violations of law by the white man in the slums over the years were calculated and compared with the law-breaking of a few days of riots, the hardened criminal would be the white man. These are often difficult things to say but I have come to see more and more that it is necessary to utter the truth in order to deal with the great problems that we face in our society."

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#728

Post by oblio »

selimthegrim wrote: post #513
staticassertion wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I actually think it's both - it's punishing the public and shifting the story.

The Seattle PD tried this during the 2001 Mardi Gras riots. It earned the police chief (Kerlikowske) a higher level position

So they didn't try, they succeeded.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#729

Post by luckylion »

chalst wrote: post #715
luckylion wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, absolutely, but there are different levels of damage. Germany has an issue with criminal clans from the Middle East, our law enforcement system isn't equipped to deal with them and our laws in general aren't either. The approach is pretty much "try not to engage", because while it's damaging to have "extended families" with hundreds of members where basically everyone of them has a criminal record, the other opti…

> Germany has an issue with criminal clans from the Middle East, our law enforcement system isn't equipped to deal with them and our laws in general aren't either. There is a big disconnect between the crime statistics in Germany, that show low crime levels by international standards and recent reductions in crime levels, and what the German public believe about the prevalence of crime in Germany due to alarmist tabl…

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the (real and perceived) level of some clans are terribly high. And I still believe that "don't touch it" is the right call to make, the cost of trying and failing is too high, and the probability of succeeding is small.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#730

Post by luckylion »

josteink wrote: post #710
luckylion wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, absolutely, but there are different levels of damage. Germany has an issue with criminal clans from the Middle East, our law enforcement system isn't equipped to deal with them and our laws in general aren't either. The approach is pretty much "try not to engage", because while it's damaging to have "extended families" with hundreds of members where basically everyone of them has a criminal record, the other opti…

> If the Leviathan shows its teeth and the problem doesn't go away, it has to bite. If it doesn't, everybody will see that the teeth aren't that sharp any more, and that will encourage more challengers. But that's effectively what doing nothing does. The state has teeth (the police) and it doesn't bite. That's a completely unambiguous signal to both criminals and law-abiding citizens. And the results of this policy a…

> But that's effectively what doing nothing does. The state has teeth (the police) and it doesn't bite.

Kind of, but not really. If you send the police to confront the looters, you are showing your teeth, you're saying "this will stop right here and right now, or else". You have to have a plan for the "or else" part.

If you don't send the police, you're not saying anything. Everybody is aware that the police exists, but unless you assert your power, there is no challenge.

This is obviously not a possible long-term strategy, because not having any power and never asserting the power you have are functionally the same. I don't think that anybody assumes the rioting will be a long-term problem though, so that may not be an issue.

> When are we finally going to apply the only acceptable course of action?

We won't. We're doing harm-reduction, both on a society level and, for politicians, on an individual level (and for management in large companies). Kick the can down the road. Attacking the big problems before they become unavoidable isn't something our systems are set up to do, not causing disturbances is incentivized, be that in law enforcement, dealing with dead industries surviving only on subsidies, education, pollution and emissions, health care, public infrastructure etc pp. "Spending $5m on that bridge now will save us lots of money in the future" isn't what the public sees - it's "they want to waste $5m on a perfectly fine bridge".

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