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The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

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Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#91

Post by logicchains »

stormdennis wrote: post #87
logicchains wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hundreds of thousands are dead in Europe from a virus The majority of whom where very old and/or in ill-health and had a 5-10% chance of dying in the next year anyway.

You don't seem to attach much value to the lives of the elderly and those who have underlying health conditions. I presume that's because no one you care about, including yourself, is in that category. That's a pretty callous attitude. At 78 you have about a 5% chance of dying in the next year but if you've lived to 78 then your life expectancy is about 10 years. 10 years thrown away so some people can go on a march…

>You don't seem to attach much value to the lives of the elderly and those who have underlying health conditions. I presume that's because no one you care about, including yourself, is in that category. That's a pretty callous attitude.

My parents are in that category, but I attach a very high negative value to using violence (or threat of it) to control people's behaviour. From my perspective it's extremely immoral to say to a huge swarth of the population: you can't work or meet your friends for the next few months, or else we'll throw you in jail if you're caught. I.e. human rights (free movement, association) are human rights; they're not compromisable just because somebody decided it's an emergency or there's some greater good that needs to be enforced. Yes it's reasonable to argue that those at risk have a right not to be infected (e.g. to require potential carriers to stay away), but this doesn't extend to requiring people they have no proximity/interaction with to stay at home and not interact with each other.

> 10 years thrown away so some people can go on a march because they're angry about someone dying.

10 years lost by one person, vs 2-3 years lost by 10 people due to the permanent negative effects on lifetime outcomes of poverty resulting from the lockdown-induced depression. Not to mention lifetime reduction in standard of living. In terms of measure that actually account for this, Quality-Adjusted Life Years, it's like the intervention is probably not a net positive: https://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/economic-cost-o....

>I presume that's because no one you care about, including yourself, is in that category.

Also, in general, making decisions based on their emotional effect on you is a selfish and unprincipled approach to any kind of public policymaking.

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#92

Post by tomcooks »

contravariant wrote: post #68
bwblabs wrote: post #59

Summary of all European (EU+) apps initiatives: https://github.com/ct-report/summary

Maybe a bit of a weird question, but does anyone know why there isn't just a single EU-wide effort? Or is it just politics as usual?

Would have taken too long to orchestrate a communal effort, plus this pandemic didn't _exactly_ make EU a more cohesive, quite the opposite especially in the beginning

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#93

Post by stormdennis »

logicchains wrote: post #91
stormdennis wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to attach much value to the lives of the elderly and those who have underlying health conditions. I presume that's because no one you care about, including yourself, is in that category. That's a pretty callous attitude. At 78 you have about a 5% chance of dying in the next year but if you've lived to 78 then your life expectancy is about 10 years. 10 years thrown away so some people can go on a march…

>You don't seem to attach much value to the lives of the elderly and those who have underlying health conditions. I presume that's because no one you care about, including yourself, is in that category. That's a pretty callous attitude. My parents are in that category, but I attach a very high negative value to using violence (or threat of it) to control people's behaviour. From my perspective it's extremely immoral…

Your conclusions are highly emotional and based on speculated consequences and thus any decisions you believe should be made would be too, ie the opposite of what you think ought to be the case. It's all about how you may be affected financially and psychologically and may therefore suffer a lower quality of life and lose 2 or 3 years of life decades hence. And for you, that trumps your parents' generation's well being in the here and now.

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#94

Post by legulere »

BjoernKW wrote: post #49
giovannibajo1 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks nice! Why is "SAP" holding the copyright? In Italy, the government acquired the copyright of the app (it was donated by the company that won the tender to develop it).

Under German law copyright is non-transferrable. However, the copyright holder can grant another party unlimited usage rights as well as waive the right to be mentioned as the actual copyright holder. Both of these might apply here: SAP's and Deutsche Telekom's employees most likely have waived their right to be mentioned as individual copyright holders (which is a common stipulation in German employment contracts) w…

You shouldn’t really call the German Author’s Rights Copyright, because it works dirfferently

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#95

Post by toohotatopic »

stormdennis wrote: post #52
toohotatopic wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also quite bizarre to see people dying because they are black. Actually it's so bizarre that people can't help but have to break rules to send a message. As far as I can tell, it's not about that one 'incident' but about all the deaths that weren't recorded, and the many lives that are spent in fear.

There are lots of black policemen in America, black police chiefs, black mayors And in terms of being killed, the people black people are most at risk from are other black people, by a wide margin

Is this also true for being killed by a black police officer? If so, please add a reference.

Otherwise it's quite expected that in a segregated society, people are killed by in-group members. This would only be different if there is a huge number of lynch mobs.

That said, there is another issue hidden beneath 'by a wide margin'. It's also bizarre that there is so much more crime among black people, and that blacks are over-proportionally incarcerated. The easy answer is that blacks are so much more violent. But if you look closer, don't you think that's a bit puzzling?

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#96

Post by stormdennis »

toohotatopic wrote: post #95
stormdennis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of black policemen in America, black police chiefs, black mayors And in terms of being killed, the people black people are most at risk from are other black people, by a wide margin

Is this also true for being killed by a black police officer? If so, please add a reference. Otherwise it's quite expected that in a segregated society, people are killed by in-group members. This would only be different if there is a huge number of lynch mobs. That said, there is another issue hidden beneath 'by a wide margin'. It's also bizarre that there is so much more crime among black people, and that blacks ar…

You cannot draw simple conclusions I believe but still the stats show that

Black and Hispanic police are as likely or more likely to kill people of color as white officers

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

With regard to your second point, you're hinting at something, why don't you spell out your aetiology for the high levels of crime along black people along with your evidence for that causation.

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#97

Post by raverbashing »

legulere wrote: post #94
BjoernKW wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under German law copyright is non-transferrable. However, the copyright holder can grant another party unlimited usage rights as well as waive the right to be mentioned as the actual copyright holder. Both of these might apply here: SAP's and Deutsche Telekom's employees most likely have waived their right to be mentioned as individual copyright holders (which is a common stipulation in German employment contracts) w…

You shouldn’t really call the German Author’s Rights Copyright, because it works dirfferently

I think the term in English is "Moral Rights" (Urheberpersönlichkeitsrecht in German but for some weird reason they're apparently different)

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#98

Post by tigershark »

unstatusthequo wrote: post #83

These will fail. 1) Not accurate enough; 2) Don’t account for walls/floors; 3) Will have low adoption where anything less than full adoption means fail; 4) can’t account for actually having a virus. False positives and false negatives combined with lack of rapid result testing will also make this useless. This is why Google and Apple looked around the room and slowly tiptoed away. Then we have the GDPR. Beat of luck…

How GDPR applies to random numbers uploaded to a server?

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#99

Post by giovannibajo1 »

unstatusthequo wrote: post #83

These will fail. 1) Not accurate enough; 2) Don’t account for walls/floors; 3) Will have low adoption where anything less than full adoption means fail; 4) can’t account for actually having a virus. False positives and false negatives combined with lack of rapid result testing will also make this useless. This is why Google and Apple looked around the room and slowly tiptoed away. Then we have the GDPR. Beat of luck…

I’d like proof that humans are better at recollecting two weeks of random encounters on the streets, compared to an imprecise Bluetooth app.

Immuni (Italian app) has been analyzed and certified as GDPR compliant by the Italian privacy watchdog, that has a technical department that is actually able to read and understand technical documentation.

Re: The Italian Covid contact-tracing app is now developed in open source

#100

Post by giovannibajo1 »

riffic wrote: post #86
scarlac wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would encourage you to read up on the technology behind it. It was intended to be anonymous to such an extend that some governments went out and said they wouldn't use it because of the lack of tracking. The methodology has also been laid out quite extensively, and it's an opt-in approach.

It's not about tracking locations, it's about tracking social connections. I'm a skeptic it won't see abuses.

Read the technical documentation and try to design an attack scenario, before deciding that it certainly can be abused
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