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Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

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Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#541

Post by XorNot »

jariel wrote: post #479
kayfox wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your of course assuming that ambulance services don't track the protests and route around them as much as possible.

There is absolutely no need for emergency services to track pop-up protests, the very notion is absurd. We don't have the right to block traffic to promote our political opinions. When protestors block traffic, if the city decides they have to go, and they won't - in those situations, it's the protesters who are 'instigating', not the police. NRA 2cnd amendment protestors, pro/anti-abortion protestors, anti-capitalis…

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#542

Post by gdubs »

marcusverus wrote: post #491
jascii wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never in my life seen an ambulance be stopped by a protest, nor have ever heard of such an incident ever occuring.

Not a protest, but this exact thing occurred during the Fort Lee Lane closure scandal, when people intentionally created road closures in New Jersey. This was national news for awhile [0] Also, a lack of media coverage for a thing doesn't mean it doesn't happen, nor does rampant media coverage mean a thing is common. Remember the summer of the shark? [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Lee_lane_closure_scandal…

It’s a lot harder for cars stuck on a bridge to move out of the way than it is for a crowd of people though, right?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#543

Post by pnw_hazor »

rayiner wrote: post #471
jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

Yeah, I don’t believe it. Rioting is natural human behavior. In Bangladesh we have violent riots after every election. The police aren’t instigating them, they are nowhere to be found. Why would I believe that Americans are any different?

It's different now. Early in the presidential campaign, anti-Trump demonstrators were blocking the road to the Reagan library to deny access to people heading to a Trump/GOP fund raiser

I remember thinking, America is in for it now, the Rubicon has been crossed. Since then politically motivated violence has been embraced and celebrated by many luminaries. Welcome to the normal.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#544

Post by ashtonkem »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #348
wetmore wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you ask the same thing of the person who made the original claim?

That's fair. Still, "nuh uh" is not an effective rebuttal. Asking for evidence is better than "you're wrong" or "you're a liar". "Here's evidence that you're wrong" is even stronger.

You’re just reversing the burden of proof with more words. The expectation you’re setting up is that we have to refute every single bit of nonsense tossed out; an impossible and exhausting process.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#545

Post by oh_sigh »

leetcrew wrote: post #516
oh_sigh wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand why US cops are so heavy handed though, right? It may be because they have to deal with a population with 3 guns per capita, where the amount of police killed per year on duty(even disregarding accidents) is more akin to a third world country than anything going on in the EU. > and high level LE people still not accepting any blame I don't know how you get that from OP saying that both sides need to de…

> It may be because they have to deal with a population with 3 guns per capita where did you find this figure? this is off by more than a factor of two from any source I can find.

Sorry, I took the total gun count(~400M) and didn't state that I did some math based on how many adults there are in the US since children and the extremely elderly tend to own far fewer guns than run of the mill adults.

The result is still more or less the same if there is 1.1 guns per capita.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#546

Post by leetcrew »

iso947 wrote: post #465
chasd00 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what? rioting is still against the law. Destroying businesses and property of fellow citizens to get your point across will always fall on deaf ears. The only possible way to achieve your goals by rioting is completely terrorizing everyone into submission. Good luck with that.

That’s what they told those sneaky terrorists that disguised themselves and snuck onto private property to destroy tea in Boston harbour.

I've seen the boston tea party brought up several times over the last couple days, and it strikes me as an odd comparison. unlike the rioting/looting that sometimes accompanies protests, the boston tea party was a specifically targeted act of resistance. the colonists resented british taxes in general, and were particularly enraged by the EIC's exemption from the tea tax (which allowed them to undercut other tea merchants in the colonies), so they directly targeted an EIC tea shipment. doesn't really seem that similar to taking advantage of a protest to smash windows and burn random buildings.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#547

Post by ashtonkem »

iso947 wrote: post #465
chasd00 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what? rioting is still against the law. Destroying businesses and property of fellow citizens to get your point across will always fall on deaf ears. The only possible way to achieve your goals by rioting is completely terrorizing everyone into submission. Good luck with that.

That’s what they told those sneaky terrorists that disguised themselves and snuck onto private property to destroy tea in Boston harbour.

Violence and destruction of private property is celebrated if you win.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#548

Post by gindely »

jariel wrote: post #482
throwablePie wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race relations between Oakland's black residents and Oakland police have been fraught for decades (probably at least since the founding of the Black Panther Party in Oakland in the 60s). But that doesn't justify the violent actions you've described. Unfortunately, some senior "dog whistle" politicians have labeled protesters "thugs" and "looters" and have called for "shooting" and "no quarter." These loose words are…

"have labeled protesters "thugs" and "looters" " Referring to looters as 'looters' is not problematic. Calling for shootings, using code-words like 'thugs' and referring to peaceful protesters as 'looters' is a problem - but let's not lose context here: there are riots and rioters are bad news. I think in these ugly times it's even more important to be cool and clear about things.

And the present has said "Good people on both sides" in reference to the current protests, right?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#549

Post by yazaddaruvala »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #375
morsch wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you hinting at? A second amendment thing? Because that really has nothing to do with the monopoly on use of violence. You can be violent without a gun. Who gets to be violent in a legal manner is an orthogonal issue. And how is it ironic? When has the second amendment ever done anything for victims of police brutality? How often has widespread gun ownership been used as an excuse for excessive police force?

The second amendment has everything to do with the question of whether the police (or any other state-sanctioned agency) is entitled to a monopoly on the use of force. But like I said, I don't understand any of this. Maybe others can offer some insight.

You can hold a gun. You can't, and shouldn't, shoot police with it.

Even Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground cannot help you if you are being attacked or harassed by the police.

I'm anti-gun, but as I understand it, the second amendment only "helps" against state actors if the population as a whole is willing to overthrow the current government. At that point what "is legal" changes, like when George Washington's troops took America from the UK and wrote the constitution.

However, from a legal standpoint (i.e. based on the current government), the police has a "monopoly on lawful use of force".

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#550

Post by leetcrew »

mcguire wrote: post #473
rpiguy wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But rioting doesn’t work. The first comprehensive study of riots was just done at Princeton and riots are found to result in crackdowns, not reform. Occupy Wallstreet, Ferguson riots, 1968 riots, LA Riots, Camden riots, all had opposite the intended effect. Democrats already had the African American vote and the cities. Rioting will swing the suburbs back to Republicans, completing the cycle again.

Likely true. But a peaceful demonstration results in no media coverage and no changes at all. This all will not end well. P.s. Were there significant riots with the Occupy thing? I seem to recall it being mostly quiet (and completely ineffectual).

I guess we'll have to wait and see if it results in any changes, but baltimore is currently making national news for having some of the most peaceful protests of this last weekend.
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