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Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#201

Post by 1123581321 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #147
sandworm101 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

It's be great if the police in the US had a more consistent uniform. If I go from one town to another in the US the police could look completely different. How are you supposed to be able to tell a police officer from a private security guard there?

They generally do have consistent uniforms (dark, gray and tan solids with a badge and utility belt.) The vehicle wraps vary more.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#202

Post by ardy42 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #84
Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

> Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers.

Relevent: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-blazer-experiment...

> For many years, the Menlo Park police had worn some variation of the traditional, pseudo-military, dark blue uniform. But Cizanckas thought that look was too intimidating and aggressive, so he traded it for slacks, dress shirts with ties, and a blazer. Guns and handcuffs remained hidden under the coat. Instead of a metal badge, the blazer sported an embroidered patch that looked a little like a coat of arms....

> That’s because uniforms not only shape how people see the police, but also how police see themselves. In challenging an image so entrenched in the style and psyche of police officers, Chief Cizanckas was bucking a tradition that would prove hard to change: a uniform whose history was interwoven with the profession it represented and that went back more than a hundred years.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#203

Post by rootusrootus »

reaperducer wrote: post #142
pmorici wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out Is it? I hear ads on the radio for Portland Police in my state (which is not Oregon) and it says pay starts at $74,000/year plus a long list of benefits. Is $35/hour the minimum page in Portland now?

As a comparison, the Portland, Oregon police bureau starts officers at 66,934 as an entry wage, and it starts at 80K if you are moving over from some other law enforcement agency.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#204

Post by sxcurry »

Some thoughts: 1) Fire all current police officers 2) Hire back maybe 25% in numbers, but different profile people 3) Stop enforcing drug laws 4) Convert all property crime handling to online recording 5) Take away police guns, tear gas, etc, except in very rare circumstances 6) Have police focus on the very few dangerous situations where they are actually needed.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#205

Post by 1123581321 »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #87
syshum wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>This is before we get into whether we really even want "those people" this is the key point. I have known many people that would like to have been a "police officer" in the sense that I believe many people think policing should be. After finding out it is more like the military than servicing the community they dropped the pursuit More recently I have even seen many Former Military people shy away from going into t…

A big part of this that I don't see addressed: huge numbers of LEO's are sent to Israel to train. I don't even have to say anything further. It speaks for itself.

Israelis excel in the defense industry and their mandatory military service means few people with physical and perceptual aptitude are untrained.

I assume you are implying an Israeli cannot be a good police trainer because they occupy Palestine, but I disagree.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#206

Post by vulcan01 »

elliekelly wrote: post #78
RangerScience wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the police narrative to one of serving, regardless of adversity (see doctors and USPS) from one of "getting to play with violent toys"...

Perhaps with some sort of hippocratic oath?

I don't think that's what causes doctors to be ethical (most of the time). Pros of being a doctor: high pay, you get to help people. People who don't want to help other people will not become doctors.

On the other hand, people who want to harm others, have a higher chance of joining the police force. (Not all police officers, but some.)

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#207

Post by flowersjeff »

Great first (if baby) step.

As others have already said here, more is needed.

I think another proper move would be to abolish police unions - nationally. This coming from a pro-union individual; however, these organizations have failed the public in my opinion.

And it's not really their fault. Unions are tasked with strictly defined goals around protection/advancement of wages, hours, benefits, and working conditions. To fail to advocate for these on the behalf of their paying members - opens them up to lawsuits themselves.

Ideally there would be an organization that would stand up for the protection of the individual in police organizations, the current structure(s) we have in place simply are not congruent with respect to protection of both the working individual in an organization and the public at large.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#208

Post by potta_coffee »

mstade wrote: post #183
stdbrouw wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis. In what kind of weird and twisted world do police officers need to push cars to the side on a daily basis?

Clearly you’ve never driven in the US of A. ;o) Facetious commentary aside – and I do apologize for the tongue in cheekness – as a European I’ve always been struck by just how many wrecks and other debris are littered by the side of the roads in the US. Mileage varies I’m sure (no pun intended) but I covered 6660 miles on a road trip through in the US last year and it seemed almost universal to me that you’d see at l…

I don't think many truckers intentionally ignore blown out tires. It's likely they just haven't noticed.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#209

Post by sandworm101 »

rconti wrote: post #164
coopsmgoops wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree from a public relations standpoint too. All the new cruisers in my city are black Chargers/Challengers with battering ram front bumpers and they look way too intense for the job. I'm also scared irreparable damage had been done to the police brand such that way fewer "good" people will want to sign up.

Pusher bumpers are just standard, and have been forever. A friend got accidentally rear-ended by a cop, no damage thanks to the pusher. The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis.

>> The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis.

Cops are also generally brutal on their vehicles. The biggest problem is probably a cop in a hurry getting out of a running vehicle without putting it into park. They get into lots of low-speed/rolling car collisions. These things happen if you are getting in/out of your car 50 times a day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSUF6EC5DF0

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#210

Post by tonystubblebine »

Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

> The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything

The solutions you are talking about are real, but this thing you said about equipment isn't true. It's definitely one of the points of emphasis for organizations that are working on this, see: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/demilitarization

And that's based on research like this that receiving military equipment made it more likely for that police department to kill its citizens. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680177128...

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