Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28 • Hacker News Board

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#221

Post by colechristensen » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:48 PM UTC

99_00 wrote: post #150

Is this because of police changing their tactics or is it because of journalists changing their tactics? I don't know the answer, but with the internet and analytics, we've seen media become more sensationalistic to get those clicks and views. So this is a possibility that should be considered.

Some has to do with the police tactic of breaking up protests by lining up in riot gear and marching towards a crowd advancing and then clearing the area in front of them with tear gas. (the example of this was breaking up an after-curfew protest in Minneapolis in front of a police station, the night after a different station had burned to the ground). Their goal seemed to be to disburse the crowd and arrest a few people as possible.

The next night their tactics changed, for the better, a similar after-curfew protest group was warned, given time, and everybody remaining was encircled by a close knit line of police and every single person was arrested. The second tactic had a much better outcome, it seemed.

There were reporters stationed on the outskirts of the crowd but between the crowd and police, and I saw some of them get teargassed. In that case it had more to do with wind and proximity than being targeted. Much different than police actively going after reporters, but sources like this one don't seem to differentiate between collateral damage from proximity and direct targeting of media teams.

Also, police in gas masks, partially for tear gas protection, partially for covid protection, facing crowd who at times have attacked police, they can't see very well, they are under enormous amounts of stress, and few of them have experience doing anything like this... if you pull back from the blame, talking about rights and duties, and just focus for a minute on the humanity... ask yourself how are these people going to fail? You'd probably come up with a lot of the ways the police indeed are failing. Now in the same context think of how those failures could be reduced without thinking about blame... and it's hard. It's a hard problem.

Just like failures in a tech stack and a team of programmers, blame is not the path to solving problems. You don't go find the guy who wrote the bug and shout at him or send him to jail or fire him or string him up in the public square, you write unit tests, you write post-mortems, you make backups, you make new monitors... in short you find the sources of problems, you investigate them, and you solve them. That sort of thought about failure needs to happen more in software, and it needs to happen more in the rest of life too. Recognizing failures, having empathy for those who fail, realizing the source of those failures is systematic, and working on systematic solutions.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#222

Post by Auracle » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

jascii wrote: post #183

drocer88 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What events were you at? Everything is on video these days somewhere. Can you point us to an online video example that you were at?

Sorry, for the safety of myself, my fellow demonstrators, and my family I am not going to state the actual events I was at. Others have already shown examples, however here is an news article covering some incidents: https://www.newsweek.com/fbi-asks-evidence-individuals-incit... I have so far not seen any evidence of the opposite taking place, I would certainly appreciate some counter examples.

I certainly don’t think the police cars in NYC going through those pedestrians - the first example on the page - is a good example.

People crowded around the vehicles and starting throwing things at them. While I would expect police to have more restraint/less fear than they did, that wasn’t the police starting violence. I would expect almost anyone to have the same reaction they did.

There was another NYC incident that people were up in arms about without context and it turns out one of the police had been hit in the head with a brick.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#223

Post by wnoise » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #121

colechristensen wrote: post #111

Some people say police attacking journalists are isolated incidents by a few bad eggs, most of them are doing the right thing. Some people say protestors becoming violent, vandalizing, and looting are isolated incidents by a few bad eggs, most of them are doing the right thing. Really similar thought processes go into those two, usually by people you can sort into camps of opposing worldviews. They're both right and…

One of those groups has access to military hardware, live ammunition, and legal (or cultural) protections from prosecution. It's dangerously to boil down the arguments from both sides and say, "Look, these two things are the same!" because even if both sides were saying, "It's a few bad apples", the implications of that would be wildly different.

One of these groups could in theory arrest their bad apples. The other cannot.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#224

Post by bluedays » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

Time for another operation Pig Roast.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#225

Post by brobdingnagians » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

steffandroid wrote: post #134

zubspace wrote: post #36

Here's another article uncovering the brutality of the police [1]. Some of the scenes are really inhuman [2] and I feel sorry for the poor people trying to make their voices heard. I hope, that both sides, the protesters and police force will find a way, to exit that spiral of violence. But right now it looks like this won't happen. It's a shame. If the state acts harder against protesters, journalists and civilian b…

> I hope, that both sides, the protesters and police force will find a way, to exit that spiral of violence. The two sides are massively unequal in terms of power, the onus is on the police to stop the violence.

The onus is on both. One may be able to do it better, and more conveniently, but everyone's responsible for doing their bit in ceasing and stopping violence.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#226

Post by illumin8 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #188

gedy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you won't be punished unless you act particularly egregiously like the one officer in Louisville reassigned to desk duty (big whoop) Isn't this honestly largely due to the police union rules and contacts, which (unions) are a key part of leftist labor relations?

Don't you think it's curious that only the police are allowed to have these super-effective unions with literal stay-out-of-jail clauses in their contracts - while Amazon workers who want proper toilet breaks will simply be fired? Does that answer your question?

Police unions shouldn't exist. It would be like having a union of military soldiers. Imagine if the US military had a union that refused to defend the country unless every soldier got immunity from war crimes and high 6 figure salaries. That is effectively what the police unions have done to this country.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#227

Post by zenhack » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #127

sixothree wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third party oversight. This country was founded on checks and balances. There are no checks to their power as it stands now.

> Third party oversight. Aren't the journalists supposed to be the third party oversight? Showing and telling the rest of us what's happening so that when one side oversteps we as a society can take action to correct it?

Freedom of the press is certainly important, and if anything changes because of all this, people hearing about it will be instrumental, but it's not a replacement for proper systems of accountability. If the bar for getting away with murder is "don't make national headlines," something is deeply wrong.

Up until now the bar has been far lower than that.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#228

Post by ccvannorman » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

evan_ wrote: post #18

linsomniac wrote: post #2

I can imagine animosity from the leadership, for example classifying most journalists as "fake news", contributing to violence from the front line against them.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/11142215334617907... > The press is doing everything within their power to fight the magnificence of the phrase, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! They can’t stand the fact that this Administration has done more than virtually any other Administration in its first 2yrs. They are truly the ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!

If "the press" is the enemy of the people, who would be the right person/party to gather information and report news?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#229

Post by colechristensen » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

99_00 wrote: post #218

augustt wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly cannot tell if you're trolling. If journalists are getting roughed up more because of sensationalism (still well within their 1st amendment rights) that is _completely_ the fault of police. One side has cameras. The other side has guns. When violence happens, who's fault do you think it is?

Do you agree that police have the right to declare a gathering unlawful and can clear the area?

The police? Not so much. Police don't make law, they shouldn't get to decide very many things at all.

The state (or city, or nation, where appropriate)? Absolutely, but only when absolutely necessary. (like curfew orders which follow widespread disorder and destruction)

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#230

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

gedy wrote: post #142

jonlucc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible, but also, there's precedent from 2014 in Ferguson. Several members of credentialed media were arrested and assaulted to various degrees. Pretty much nothing happened by way of punishment other than a settlement from the DoJ saying they couldn't kettle people anymore, enforced by what is now Barr's department. Any officer paying attention would know you won't be punished unless you act particularly egre…

> you won't be punished unless you act particularly egregiously like the one officer in Louisville reassigned to desk duty (big whoop) Isn't this honestly largely due to the police union rules and contacts, which (unions) are a key part of leftist labor relations?

You'd be hard pressed to find a leftist that supports police unions.