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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#671

Post by sojournerc »

renewiltord wrote: post #284
sojournerc wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many corners of this country that offer what you describe but they aren't on a map. Not even rural areas necessarily. The US remains a diverse and rich place, despite all efforts to distill its culture to a sound bite.

Well, hopefully one day I'll find those places, but so far across NC, CO, and CA it's all majority authoritarians wherever I look. It's not that life is hard for me. It's great. It's just that there are lots of authoritarians everywhere and that's harming my worldview. If you don't want to spread it too wide, I'd welcome a tip. renewiltord@protonmail.com If you feel like you'd rather not share, I understand that too.

I don't disagree with there being a majority of meddlesome authoritarians in the US. Largely there's a culture of strict rule-following whether or not there's a good reason for the rule.

I live in a little mountain town outside of Boulder, CO. The contrast between the anti-authoritarian libertarians, cowboys and hippies in my small community and the "yuppies" just 15 miles east in Boulder is palpable.

Rugged individualism is very much alive here. I have friends that live in small cabins without running water, who heat with wood and live very simply and freely. They just don't make as much noise as the authoritarians.

Come listen to bluegrass in Nederland some time!

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#672

Post by craftinator »

ashtonkem wrote: post #607
nicoburns wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is with how these incidents are dealt with when they happen. Ordinary citizens could expect jail time for doing something like this, and that threat helps to protect black people against these bad people. In this specific case , it looks like the police officer will face justice. But that only happened after the huge public outcry, and it didn't happen in countless other cases even when there was a big-bu…

The phrase “the straw that broke the camel’s back” comes to mind. Yes, outrageous police conduct has happened before. But for some ineffable reason, this one time was one time to many.

I think that because this incident was so clearly visible, the video capturing what was so obviously murder, that it was a concrete platform to start a movement on. In many other cases, there was at least an attempt by the victim to defend themselves, or parts of the video that left holes in the context of what was going on. This one was a slaughter, and no one could find a justification for it.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#673

Post by cpursley »

learc83 wrote: post #666
cpursley wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Economic damage Exactly how is destroying low income housing, small businesses (many of them minority owned) and peoples places of employment going to persuade "the elites"?

I'm not promoting or condoning violence. But Apple shut down their retail stores over this, so it definitely is impacting "the elites" to some extent.

I own shares of Apple via my retirement plan. Am I elite?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#674

Post by untog »

cpursley wrote: post #657
jamiewilson wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s no wonder that the protests over the last 20 years haven’t worked to garner more support considering that those who do participate are treated with violent retaliation. Maybe if those of us begging to be heard were allowed to speak, and scream and chant, it would inspire more people to unite, organize and vote.

> Maybe if those of us begging to be heard were allowed to speak, and scream and chant, it would inspire more people to unite, organize and vote. You can. As far as I know, the US is still a democratic country with elections.

Is it even worth going through the ways in which US democracy is broken? From the electoral system itself all the way down to extremely obvious voter suppression efforts (often specifically targeting black people), you really can't be too surprised that people do not feel that their voices are being heard.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#675

Post by carb »

meerita wrote: post #600
carb wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If police departments properly charged their employees when they break the law, there would not have been protests, rioting, or looting. Trevor Noah's attempt at explaining this is very straightforward but adroit.

Another point: Persona A goes and kill my neighboor, Can I (or is it good to) go out and do whatever a I want? Like rioting, beating people and destroying other people property?

If you have proof that Person A killed your neighbor, and yet they were being protected from prosecution, of course I would support your right to protest. Sometimes the only way to get change is with large public support.

Unfortunately, today's news focuses only on violence and fear mongering. You will eventually realize that peaceful protests have never successfully brought change. You will find yourself screaming into a void, without justice.

Today, the police claim that there are only a few Bad cops but most are Good, and ask us to trust that. There are only a few rioting protestors, but most are peaceful. However, the cops across the US are rioting, beating, and destroying the lives of every protestors. Cleveland PD has banned news media from entering downtown. Seattle PD has fired flashbangs and rubber bullets at news reporters. A black CNN reporter and their whole crew was arrested live to avoid the public witnessing what was to take place.

Nobody disagrees that rioting and vandalism and burglary are horrible acts. But I would rather the people riot if it leads to lives being saved and equal accountability for all citizens.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#676

Post by craftinator »

0xBA5ED wrote: post #638
TulliusCicero wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In your opinion. Seriously? They let him slowly kill a dude right next to him! This isn't a situation where he just whipped out a gun and instantly shot someone, that kind of thing would be hard to stop in time, they had literal minutes where they could've stepped in, and chose not to.

The end result is that he died, but it isn't clear if they all knew the man was being killed. It could very well be plain stupidity that they all thought "as long as he is speaking, he must be able to breathe".

I've participated in law enforcement hand to hand and incapacitation training sessions (as a Marine). At least in those trainings, it was very clearly taught what techniques were safe and effective, how to use them, and we practiced them on each other literally hundreds of times. If you've ever had a blood choke or constrictive choke applied to you, you immediately understand what it's like, and what dangers it presents. The officer charged knew what he was doing, without a doubt. The officers around him had a moral and legal requirement to stop him to avoid being complicit in this murder; they chose to help in the murder instead.

In the military, I would have been convicted of a war crime had I done this to an unarmed and incapacitated enemy combatant; even in ignorance, even if it had been a mistake, even if I was tired and had a bad day. I'd hope our police force would be held to a higher standard dealing with our own citizens than a soldier or Marine dealing with an enemy of the state.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#677

Post by 0xBA5ED »

ashtonkem wrote: post #669
0xBA5ED wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end result is that he died, but it isn't clear if they all knew the man was being killed. It could very well be plain stupidity that they all thought "as long as he is speaking, he must be able to breathe".

Do you believe that kneeling on another human being’s neck for 9 minutes is not dangerous?

Dangerous? Yes. Did they know it would be fatal? I have no idea. It isn't clear that they were standing there with the intent to "keep watch while their colleague killed him". I don't believe they knew he would die. That doesn't absolve them, but should they be arrested as accomplices to murder? It isn't clear!

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#678

Post by nicoburns »

craftinator wrote: post #672
ashtonkem wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase “the straw that broke the camel’s back” comes to mind. Yes, outrageous police conduct has happened before. But for some ineffable reason, this one time was one time to many.

I think that because this incident was so clearly visible, the video capturing what was so obviously murder, that it was a concrete platform to start a movement on. In many other cases, there was at least an attempt by the victim to defend themselves, or parts of the video that left holes in the context of what was going on. This one was a slaughter, and no one could find a justification for it.

Yeah, I think this is it too. In particular, this case was so clear cut that it enraged white people who were perhaps more passively supportive in other cases.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#679

Post by craftinator »

idealboy wrote: post #275
briandear wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t c…

Yes, I and about 90% of the crowd wore masks. Yes, we did our best to keep 6 feet but not always, hence the masks. People were walking around with hand sanitizer to share. A global pandemic is awful, but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. Was it uncomfortable and difficult? Yes. Am I glad I went? Hell yes. Black lives matter.

Plus, it's awfully hard to avoid spraying spit and snot on everyone around you when you're getting tear-gassed. I know, I've been cs-gassed many, many times. The police are not helping the situation with this tactic.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#680

Post by 0xBA5ED »

craftinator wrote: post #676
0xBA5ED wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end result is that he died, but it isn't clear if they all knew the man was being killed. It could very well be plain stupidity that they all thought "as long as he is speaking, he must be able to breathe".

I've participated in law enforcement hand to hand and incapacitation training sessions (as a Marine). At least in those trainings, it was very clearly taught what techniques were safe and effective, how to use them, and we practiced them on each other literally hundreds of times. If you've ever had a blood choke or constrictive choke applied to you, you immediately understand what it's like, and what dangers it prese…

But do you believe it would be totally clear that you should be convicted of a crime for failing to stop your commanding officer from committing a crime?
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