De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#481

Post by eirini1 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:48 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #220

bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

>It is fascinating to me how left wing protests seem to frequently degrade into violence. Recent case in point was the reopen protesters. I don’t think a single shot was fired by the crowd, nor were any buildings burned or looted.

thats very interesting. The difference seems to be in initial reactions of the police to peaceful protests. With lockdown protesters, police showed up in soft clothes and didn't initiate violence on the protestors.

Regarding the much more serious issue of police brutality, police responded very violently to the initially peaceful protests. They were the ones that escalated things. Very interesting overall, and I think the obvious answer is that left wing causes seem to offer critiques that are much more incisive and dangerous to the government.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#482

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:49 AM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #480

pmiller2 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Voting and promoting change is what has not worked. Economic damage is likely to be the only thing that's going to persuade the elites to throw the working class a bone. You're witnessing the anger of the masses in its most pure form here.

Where is the MLK of 2020? I want to see someone who can go beyond their anger and have a plan and lead .

[deleted]

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#483

Post by creato » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:53 AM UTC

frabbit wrote: post #236

pjc50 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White protestors were allowed to occupy a state building with guns without a single bit of teargas.

Not to mention the Malheur Refuge standoff where heavily armed protestors were handled with kid gloves. Maybe it's to do with having guns?

A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed. It is ironic that you are calling the police killing someone handling with "kid gloves" in a thread about deescalation between protestors and police.

(Don't get me wrong, what those protestors did was senseless and the epitome of entitlement.)

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#484

Post by MagnumOpus » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

g8tor wrote: post #168

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

I don't read that article as supporting the title that descalation leads to less violence. it does discuss evidence for escalation being correlated with more violence. but you can't blanket say that's causal. These are complex situations that don't follow rules. The mob consists of peaceful protesters, violent protesters and looters. people's membership in any of these groups can be multiple and shift over time. it's…

> the police can't cure the people of their anger no matter what they do

However, mayors or governors could. Tell AGs to have compulsory investigations of all policce shootings. Charge police officers who don't report corruption or violence with conspiracy charges. Bust police unions which arehelping criminal cops and charge them under RICO statutes.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#485

Post by JoeSmithson » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 8:05 AM UTC

znpy wrote: post #457

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

I'm seeing many videos of police doing things like attacking journalists, beating their own cars so that they can later blame the protestors or videos of police unloading bricks from their pickup. The problem is not de-escalation, is that the police is behaving in a criminal manner.

Do you have the links for the second two (damaging own car, unloading bricks)?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#486

Post by Shacklz » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 8:06 AM UTC

rectang wrote: post #48

davros wrote: post #17

From afar, it seems to me like the big problem in US policing is a lack of calm professionalism. The de-escalation approach in the article would to me but just one aspect of taking a professional approach where safety and following rules and best practices is paramount (and prioritised over 'winning' against criminals).

I have always suspected that US police are shunted into sub-optimal patterns because there are so many guns here that the odds a simple interaction will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that? That doesn't mean that they can't do more de-escalation or take other steps, but the high prevalence of guns does seem like it would be a contribu…

> will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that?

Switzerland (disclaimer; I'm Swiss) has also lots of weapons around, but if the police are ever shooting someone it's usually big news with investigations on whether it was really necessary.

From my laymen point of view, police training and holding them accountable to their actions is probably even a bigger factor than gun availability (although this is certainly a factor too). If I'm not mistaken, Swiss police training strongly encourages to back off if someone draws a weapon, trying to keep it cool, talk softly/slowly etc. It seems that in the US, the first hint of a weapon will result in drawn weapons by police and a 'drop your weapon'-shouting-contest; that's at least what seems to often happen in footage that ends up in the news where something goes wrong and someone ends up being dead.

Edit: One of the more memorable examples I saw was a video via NYT, where some guy was being arrested, tried to adjust his pants and was immediately being shot because the officer thought he was going for a gun. This is absolutely unimaginable in Switzerland; I would have to look it up for the facts but I think to remember a case where someone was shot holding (and threatening with) a fake-gun, and the officer who did so went to jail if I remember correctly.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#487

Post by celticninja » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 8:10 AM UTC

dchichkov wrote: post #473

rallison wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody likes that these protests are likely to lead to increased transmission. It's a truly terrible choice. People are making that choice because these protests get to such a fundamental problem in our society that they are still worth it, despite the cost. And, as has been mentioned, mask usage is high, and these protests are outside. It doesn't eliminate the risk, but many, many people are still trying to minimize…

Work. Volunteer. Take care of your family. Vote. It's a bit of a bad timing for protests right now - easily exploited, will likely result in negative change.

perhaps ask the US police if they could kill unarmed black males at more appropriate times maybe?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#488

Post by nikofeyn » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 8:11 AM UTC

aaronchall wrote: post #456

asenna wrote: post #215

I highly recommend checking out Trevor Noah's recent video on the protests - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb4Bg8mu2aM He mentions how society is at its core a contract on how to engage with one another. Everything we do is in some form conforming to that contract and when this contract is violated (like the stores being looted and vandalized), it angers you. However, to the people who're really affected by this is…

The sense I get of it is that he is making excuses for looting behavior.

if that's the case, then why is that bad and the fact that the most wealthy, corporations, and our politicians get away with their excuses from looting people? their looting is stealing data, not paying their share of taxes, abusing power, etc., and just because they aren't physical acts doesn't excuse them.

but it's because they are the status quo, and they define what's looting or not. i'm not in favor of stealing and violence, particularly because the ones getting stolen from are at the bottom as well, but it sure seems those at the top sure live in a different society and under different rules that conveniently favor their form of "looting".

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#489

Post by JoeSmithson » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 8:14 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #363

yters wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what exactly is your counter proposal? the united communes of america? monopoly on violence exists because people are evil and violent without a lawful monopoly on violence you get much of what you see in the rest of the world anarchist want to destroy the current system flaws and all for a vacuum of justice

So your solution to "people are evil and violent" is to... give a bunch of people carte blanche to be evil and commit violence with no accountability or recourse available to their victims?

> "carte blanche to be evil"

Is this a good faith interpretation of what you honestly think they were saying?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#490

Post by KuiN » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

meerita wrote: post #463

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that almost every violent protest/riot started peaceful but then police make it violent. I have seen this so many times where police stay out of the way and everything goes smoothly. I think US police actually want a riot. They want to create violence.

Are you saying it was police fault people went to loot/destroy evertyhing in every city?

This comment can surely not be in good faith. You cannot seriously be suggesting you believe that protesters went to "destroy evertyhing[sic] in every city"?