De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#381

Post by Animats » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:51 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #379

> That, experts say, speaks to a cultural attitude that is endemic to the profession, and is hard to change with new chiefs or rules. Thomson encountered this when he tried to make change in Camden. The police department was so dysfunctional that the city took the unprecedented step of disbanding the force and reconstituting a whole new agency from scratch. This American Life did a story about a new chief trying to r…

I didn't know that any city had reconstituted their police department. But Camden did, in 2012.[1] They fired all their cops and started over with new ones.

[1] http://archive.is/BfQIx

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#382

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:51 AM UTC

malnourish wrote: post #355

alexashka wrote: post #233

It takes just a few rotten apples on the side of the protestors to make it go violent. It also takes just a few rotten apples on the side of the police to make it go violent. Protesting is largely a modern witch hunt. It lets people blow off some steam, rather ineffectively in the modern protest case, because you don't get to burn anyone alive at the end of it. Enough people long for that witch hunt finale, and that'…

Boston tea party Haymarket riots Black Friday suffragette riots Martin Luther King Jr riots Stonewall riots

You’ll want to remove Boston Tea party from that list. Extremely non-violent event. They broke one pad lock, didn’t steal any tea, and bought the yard a new padlock the next day.

It wasn’t a “protest” in any comparable way to this.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#383

Post by kuzimoto » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:51 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #348

kuzimoto wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could be completely wrong, but the number of potential rioters (actual rioters + protestors) likely outnumbered police. The scale is so much larger and potential for damage and destruction is huge (over 200 businesses looted/destroyed in Minneapolis) that it is I believe of the highest priority to disperse the crowds as quickly as they can.

That is not an answer to my argument - that the Government says one thing so we're compliant, and then does another when it suits it.

It is citizens job to be compliant. It is the government's job to enforce compliance.

I'm sure there was things the police could do better, but no one died at the hands of the police (after protesting started). The same can't be said for the protestors/rioters.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#384

Post by azernik » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:52 AM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #309

thebradbain wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As they would rather not tax people to pay for it" I think you may be underestimating how much cities dedicate their budgets to police spending: "Mayor Eric Garcetti's 2020-2021 city budget gives police $3.14 billion out of the city's $10.5 billion. That's the single biggest line item, dwarfing, say, emergency management ($6 million) and economic development ($30 million)." (In fact, LAPD is getting pay raises while…

This is off topic for the overall thread, but important for this thread. > "Mayor Eric Garcetti's 2020-2021 city budget gives police $3.14 billion out of the city's $10.5 billion. That's the single biggest line item, dwarfing, say, emergency management ($6 million) and economic development ($30 million)." (In fact, LAPD is getting pay raises while LA teachers are getting a pay decrease) The Los Angeles Unified School…

San Francisco is unique in the state in being the City and County of San Francisco; city council members are also county commissioners, and the mayor is also county executive.

The broader Bay Area is closer to the LA system, although transit and utilities are more likely to be detached from cities than education.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#385

Post by alexashka » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:54 AM UTC

shigawire wrote: post #287

alexashka wrote: post #233

It takes just a few rotten apples on the side of the protestors to make it go violent. It also takes just a few rotten apples on the side of the police to make it go violent. Protesting is largely a modern witch hunt. It lets people blow off some steam, rather ineffectively in the modern protest case, because you don't get to burn anyone alive at the end of it. Enough people long for that witch hunt finale, and that'…

>It's never going to fix actual systemic issues, but perhaps burning witches is good enough, given our history, and going in circles indefinitely is the way of this species. Counter point - the Civil Rights Act of 1968. People pay attention when they are forced to. I won't pass a moral judgement as it's not my place, but nothing will change until force is applied. I think that is the lesson history teaches.

Well it depends on where you think we ought to be going - then we can then decide what history is teaching us :)

History written in textbooks tends to teach the narrative that was sponsored. Modern pop-history tends to teach what will sell the most copies, so history is teaching us all kinds of selective facts about life.

Regarding force - force needs to be applied for anything to move - that's just a fundamental law of physics :) The question is where and how do we apply force and in what quantities?

My stance is that witch hunting did not solve the issue of witches causing droughts, scientists along with engineers and people willing to work today, for a better tomorrow, solved hunger in many places of the world.

Now imagine somebody that does believe that his or her witch hunt of year 1543 did fix drought for a decade in his/her town. What evidence could you possibly provide to convince them otherwise? They know there was no drought for ten years, they know they burned a witch in 1543. Now if there is a drought ten years later, clearly we just didn't burn enough witches!

This is the difficulty in dealing with people who rely on emotion, not cold hearted rationality, to solve problems. Cold hearted rationality has its dangers too and one can argue until the cows come home that we may have been better off never industrializing, never inventing agriculture and sticking with hunter gathering, at one with nature and all. Not me, I like hot showers, anti-biotics and all the other modern amenities too much. I'm in the rationality over emotion camp. The people out there protesting I'm guessing are in the other camp and that's totally fine with me.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#386

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:56 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #254

stcredzero wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. B…

> Are you going to speak for the elderly woman who was beaten by a 2x4, or her husband who was beaten when he came to protect her? Are you going to speak for the independent owner of the vintage clothing store in LA who was preparing to re-open and had his windows smashed and his inventory stolen? Sure, I will - it's a shame that the cops refused to follow the science on the subject and deescelate protests. Instead t…

> > Are you going to speak for the elderly woman who was beaten by a 2x4, or her husband who was beaten when he came to protect her? Are you going to speak for the independent owner of the vintage clothing store in LA who was preparing to re-open and had his windows smashed and his inventory stolen?

> Sure, I will

Easy for you to say. You are in the privileged position of only having lost some body work on your motorcycle. Do you really think they'd consent to your "speaking for them?"

it's a shame that the cops refused to follow the science on the subject and deescelate protests. Instead they chose to fire on peaceful protesters and kick off a riot.

The bad people here are the extremists who are egging on the violence, while creating the devious tactical position of making it very hard for the police to distinguish who is who.

So, to everyone that has been harmed by the police, directly (having their eyes shot out, being choked to death), or indirectly (property damage due to an avoidable riot), I think the police should be held responsible.

Yes. And how about someone speaks for you, as you say you would for others? You are going to pay for the inventory of the shop. You are going to pay for the medical bills of the shop owner and his wife, plus pain and suffering. How about that?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#387

Post by kuzimoto » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:57 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #305

kuzimoto wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue. That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force? > Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to rem…

> violent rioting All of the videos from the last few days is still being sorted, but from what I've seen the violence from police against protesters far outstrips that of protesters against random people or cops. I'm in fact only aware of several incidents, and all of which were easily justifiable - a man firing a bow at protesters, an idiot screaming the n-word at protesters, and a man charging at protesters with a…

> from what I've seen the violence from police against protesters far outstrips that of protesters against random people or cops.

How? As far as I can tell no one was killed at the hands of the police (after protests started). Just in Chicago at least 17 people were killed during the protests.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#388

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #328

stcredzero wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot. This is exactly what extremist groups exploiting the protests want. The extremists want to foment violence between the protesters and the police. The situation plays into their hands, because the police have no way of distinguishing who is who. The cir…

cynical tinfoil hat, i think thats the end game get people used to lockdown with the pandemic, then escalate to martial law i predict these riots will only get worse, and will be met with military enforced lockdowns

cynical tinfoil hat, i think thats the end game

It's been the clear pattern of Antifa and other far left groups. Sowing chaos and preventing discourse is what they've been doing more and more for several years now.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#389

Post by cossatot » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #344

nostromo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minneapolis Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo Seattle Chief of Police: http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/... St Louis Chief of Police: http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml Atlanta Chief of Police: https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_s... Chicago Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) Oakland Chie…

Nostromo, I'm the CEO of Nickelodeon, and I want to thank you for sharing this. I've directed my team of animators to re-work their characters to better match reality. The people shooting at you in real life should be in Paw Patrol too!

I thought Paw Patrol had already covered this:

"‘Paw Patrol’ Writers Defend Episode Where German Shepherd Cop Shoots Unarmed Black Lab 17 Times In Back"[1]

[1]: https://entertainment.theonion.com/paw-patrol-writers-defend...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#390

Post by stcredzero » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:03 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #264

stcredzero wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. B…

> Certainly, this system isn't perfect Well shit it isn't, it results every year in people being murdered in cold blood, nobody being arrested for it despite the perpetrators being known, and the majority of the population is apparently utterly fine with this - even you are merely saying that this situation "needs improvement", like you're marking homework. "The police only murdered one person in cold blood today rat…

Well shit it isn't, it results every year in people being murdered in cold blood, nobody being arrested for it despite the perpetrators being known

After the George Floyd incident, everyone was in agreement that this should stop. What's happening with the violence and the vandalism is just muddying the waters. It's almost as if the purpose isn't to make things better, but to foment a race war to destabilize the USA.