De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#321

Post by rhegart » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:05 AM UTC

gonzo41 wrote: post #66

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #19

Imagine being a cop and having to deal with stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4L97igDjY They literally save this man's life and he kills the guy who saved his life. Cops don't work in a safe space. Years of working in a violent and hateful environment must take a serious toll on them.

Also watching that video, the cops were grabbing at his waist where there was a gun, If the guy was just saved by firefighters he may be in an altered state so antagonizing him about carrying seems pretty reckless.

The excuses and justifications for criminals are infinite yet a remotely nuanced take on a cop’s difficulties are met with vile hatred and anger

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#322

Post by yters » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:05 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #264

stcredzero wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. B…

> Certainly, this system isn't perfect Well shit it isn't, it results every year in people being murdered in cold blood, nobody being arrested for it despite the perpetrators being known, and the majority of the population is apparently utterly fine with this - even you are merely saying that this situation "needs improvement", like you're marking homework. "The police only murdered one person in cold blood today rat…

would you prefer a country with no rule of law? there are plenty of those around to check out

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#323

Post by ilaksh » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:06 AM UTC

I was watching someone stream the protests near the White House last night. The police were being hit with water bottles and sometimes fireworks, but still they mostly just stood there. The police did not escalate at all until the protestors lit two fires. One completely took over a small building and another was like a bonfire in the middle of the street.

So the question is how many fires should you let them light? After that they became very aggressive and used the year gas and batons and rubber bullets to take over the area and force the protestors to retreat back a few blocks. Later on the looting a few blocks away from the police escalated and it does seem like it could have been partially motivated by the violent tactics from before. But if you look at the amount of arson and destruction in Minnesota recently when there was no real police presence, it seems like the result was worse.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#324

Post by mempko » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:06 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #190

renewiltord wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's what people said for twenty years. So people wrote letters and went to court and the media. Turns out that didn't work. Actually, have you seen Daniel Shaver's killing? No riot. Outcome: that policeman collects a pension and rests easy at home. So it is established your technique doesn't work. When the good things don't work, eventually you get the bad things. That's not even through people changing. It's…

Regardless of the effectiveness of peaceful protests over the past 20 years, violent ones are even less likely to see change. Those already on the fence or against the issue will just use it as an opportunity to dismiss it all as thugs interested in chaos, no matter that the majority are peaceful.

40 hour work week resulted from violent protests. it's pride month, ask your gay friends. Most change does. Look up Haymarket affair.

Everything you casually take for granted people had to die for.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#325

Post by justin66 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:07 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #220

bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

> The Charlottesville, VA protest by the extreme right wing however is a counterexample — but it’s an exception that proves the rule.

It's not any kind of exception. Protests involving the klan and the Nazis have often been extremely dangerous.

Aside from that, the point you're making is trivial in an obvious way that you really ought to understand. Violent right wingers are not typically on the protesters' side in American demonstrations, Nazis and KKK notwithstanding, because they are on the side of the police.

Think about what these ideological categories mean for a moment and you wouldn't normally expect leftists to put on riot gear and bust heads for the man, or for conservatives to go out and violently oppose the status quo.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#326

Post by spicyramen » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

I lived in Mexico City downtown for 15 years. If you don't know if there is a problem anywhere in the country, people would come to Mexico City main plaza to protest. Many peaceful protests never really achieve anything, others utterly violent neither. I witnessed farmers being beat up by the police, women and kids fighting riot police and building destruction. One common element is that certain police officers are aggressive by nature and suddenly get a free card to hurt people. I agree with the article, communication is key. In many protests I believe there is a lack of miscommunication in all parties, and others are not well planned or are infiltrated to diminish the reason of the protest. Some groups advocate for violence as the only way to be heard (which in some cases is a valid reason, e.g. fascism) but destroying normal people business vs government Infrastructure I don't think should be permitted

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#327

Post by BeetleB » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #258

idealboy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd…

Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t c…

> Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet?

Are you suggesting shooting rubber bullets is an appropriate means to enforce social distancing?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#328

Post by yters » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #242

sagarm wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police brutality is a systemic issue. Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. The Police reaction to these protests clearly shows systemic reform is needed. Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot.

Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot. This is exactly what extremist groups exploiting the protests want. The extremists want to foment violence between the protesters and the police. The situation plays into their hands, because the police have no way of distinguishing who is who. The cir…

cynical tinfoil hat, i think thats the end game

get people used to lockdown with the pandemic, then escalate to martial law

i predict these riots will only get worse, and will be met with military enforced lockdowns

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#329

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #296

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't retroactively justify a riot based on police conflicts with rioters. It violates causality.

But as the article says - why were there riots at all? Because the cops were firing on peaceful protesters! Evidence abounds. They committed police brutality, at the protests against police brutality. It genuinely boggles the mind.

The premise "many assholes are cops" doesn't need a lot of new evidence. There is more than enough existing evidence.

But what do you honestly expect riots to lead to? Concessions? Or loss of the moral high ground and even more riot gear and tear gas and escalation?

It's just handing the cops a free pass to justify arresting you. And not just arresting you, but charging you with something that could actually stick. Its hard to advocate policy when you're serving a decade in prison for arson and conspiracy.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#330

Post by XorNot » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:10 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #115

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

>The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organizers meeting and jointly managing protests, but that this practice fell into disuse after the 1999 Seattle WTO meeting in which protesters violated the negotiated terms and police responded with violence. Beyond the general history, this is a big ask of the protesters when one of the primary motivator…

It's a big ask when politicians have been acting like they can ignore protests which is what the past, hell, decade or so has really been like.

The political class had collectively decided they understood protests, that people would turn up peacefully, shout some slogans and then go home.

But that's not what a protest is. A protest is a clear and specific message "this is how many people took time out of their day, free time, time off work to come and represent themselves for an issue - do you think it's wise to ignore them?"