De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#331

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #297

komali2 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying hinges on the people never stepping outside the bounds of what the US government deems acceptable. Consider that the US government deems what we want (no more police brutality) unacceptable, by definition, we need to work outside the system to solve the problem. It's similar to 2a people I've met that think that somehow the constitution guarantees their right to overthrow the US government if it be…

The US government will also never fall to external forces, unless we are nuked. Their power far exceeds what most of the general population can imagine. The only way to change life as a citizen is to get the majority of the population on your side and to be loud. And if you get criminal or violent for no reason (there's a difference between directly fighting against police brutality and beating a small business owner…

> (there's a difference between directly fighting against police brutality and beating a small business owner senseless because he doesn't want you robbing him)

Fyi this is an example I often see spoken of, and then when it gets linked to it's actually a man that was charging at protesters with a sword unprovoked.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#332

Post by kuzimoto » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #311

kuzimoto wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue. That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force? > Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to rem…

> In that situation, how are you to quickly separate the two groups? You're not to quickly do anything. Most countries claim to have the right an assumption of innocence for a reason - they believe, very strongly, that committing violence towards an innocent person is worse than letting a guilty person get away with whatever they were doing. Property can be rebuilt, for the most part; people's lives, not so much. To…

I could be completely wrong, but the number of potential rioters (actual rioters + protestors) likely outnumbered police. The scale is so much larger and potential for damage and destruction is huge (over 200 businesses looted/destroyed in Minneapolis) that it is I believe of the highest priority to disperse the crowds as quickly as they can.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#333

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #25

just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

Minneapolis Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo Seattle Chief of Police: http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/... St Louis Chief of Police: http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml Atlanta Chief of Police: https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_s... Chicago Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) Oakland Chie…

[deleted]

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#334

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

autokad wrote: post #307

robotresearcher wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks Normalized for population, in the US the rate is 3X for black people, and a white person's expectation to be killed by police is less than the average. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

and you could do the SAME thing with black people and homicide and aggravated assault rates. Then you would go on to say those particular rates are racist to say. Are you ready to stop rationalizing away the deaths that everyone is facing and stop arguing over skin color and start talking about police brutality? or do you want to keep arguing about something besides the point? if so, why?

> aggravated assault rates.

You actually can't, because such studies are based on arrest rates, not the unstudied "amount it actually happens."

Furthermore, something like that can't be pinned on "race," which is already a nebulous concept that exists only as an ill-defined cultural construct, whereas "cop" is a defined entity.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#335

Post by yters » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

autokad wrote: post #307

robotresearcher wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks Normalized for population, in the US the rate is 3X for black people, and a white person's expectation to be killed by police is less than the average. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

and you could do the SAME thing with black people and homicide and aggravated assault rates. Then you would go on to say those particular rates are racist to say. Are you ready to stop rationalizing away the deaths that everyone is facing and stop arguing over skin color and start talking about police brutality? or do you want to keep arguing about something besides the point? if so, why?

i think the cop issue is a higher standard

cops have a lawful monopoly on force, and if you cannot trust that will be used justly, then we lose the whole basis of rule by law

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#336

Post by proc0 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:14 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #131

lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

How are you going to fix police brutality with more brutality? What is the end goal anyway, the state won't be defeated and the #1 group suffering are the people who lost jobs, homes, and loved ones.

Is the idea to make a mess and then police will be "ok guys, we get it now, we will be nice". Obviously you will have to change the laws and this could have been the initial objective through peaceful protests only.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#337

Post by foolinaround » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:14 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #258

idealboy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd…

Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t c…

Insightful questions that we need to ask ourselves...

In hindsight, it seems like all that social distancing and lockdown regulations were all a power grab, and we all fell for it.

Downvoting this comment is a disservice because it stifles the conversation.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#338

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:16 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #322

vertex-four wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly, this system isn't perfect Well shit it isn't, it results every year in people being murdered in cold blood, nobody being arrested for it despite the perpetrators being known, and the majority of the population is apparently utterly fine with this - even you are merely saying that this situation "needs improvement", like you're marking homework. "The police only murdered one person in cold blood today rat…

would you prefer a country with no rule of law? there are plenty of those around to check out

It's getting off topic, but it's worth pointing out that all the examples you're about to drum up may not have rule of law, but they certainly have "law," in that they have someone holding a monopoly on violence and the willingness to use it to meet their ends.

I think that's an important distinction to make between such a place, and a place of anarchy or a commune, which aren't necessarily places that don't have "rule of law" and aren't necessarily hubs of raw violent chaos.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#339

Post by bjourne » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:17 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #220

bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

> I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny.

Can you spot the difference between an African and European swallow? I bet you can't. But a professional bird watcher could tell them apart in a second.

Same thing with protestors. When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful. Woman with a stroller - probably peaceful. Person in all black with a large backpack - potentially violent. Admittedly, this was many years ago but I don't think rioters are any harder to spot these days.

Thing is, most riots are planned and not spontaneous events. Troublemakers infiltrate the crowds and try to cause confrontations with the police. The police reacts with heavy handedness causing those who are peaceful to sympathize with the troublemakers. More of them join the troublemakers side causing more confrontations and eventually it spirals out of control.

The simple solution to this problem is for the police to target the troublemakers and to let the peaceful protestors be. It actually is that easy because organizers almost always knows who the troublemakers are and would share that info with the police. But the police isn't interested. I suspect that is because by and large they love riots just as much as the rioters.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#340

Post by komali2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:18 AM UTC

shigawire wrote: post #293

kuzimoto wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue. That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force? > Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to rem…

>But let's get this clear, it was violent rioting that was occurring. In that situation, how are you to quickly separate the two groups? The crowd of people slowly marching while getting shot and teargassed or the protesters. Those in the liquor store are the looters. Pretty simple. If firing indescriminantly into a crowd makes it hard to tell these groups apart it sounds like the police tactics need work.

Regardless, it doesn't make sense to brutalize looters. They did this shit during hurricane katrina too - people stuffed into a stadium desperate for aid, people trapped on roofs, and the national guard comes in guns ablaze against looters. It's madness to put "property rights" over human lives.

Oh well, the liquor store is getting looted. Sucks that you can't deal with that because there are protests because you are murdering black people. Fix the bigger problem before worrying about property.