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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#311

Post by vertex-four »

kuzimoto wrote: post #271
sagarm wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police brutality is a systemic issue. Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. The Police reaction to these protests clearly shows systemic reform is needed. Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue. That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force? > Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to rem…

> In that situation, how are you to quickly separate the two groups?

You're not to quickly do anything. Most countries claim to have the right an assumption of innocence for a reason - they believe, very strongly, that committing violence towards an innocent person is worse than letting a guilty person get away with whatever they were doing. Property can be rebuilt, for the most part; people's lives, not so much.

To put it bluntly - if a group of people robs a bank in the middle of the business day, you don't tear gas and shoot at everyone inside it.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#312

Post by whymauri »

thephyber wrote: post #292
whymauri wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle PD maced a child and the officer who did it faced no repercussions. Is the Chief of Police a toothless position? The only other conclusion is that maybe GP should consider removing Seattle's Chief as a supporting example. I would consider macing children to be "cartoonishly evil."

> Is the Chief of Police a toothless position? Kinda. In big cities in states with strong union laws, the burden is very high for cause to fire an officer. Even when there is a firing, the officer can appeal and sometimes be reinstated. It opens the department up to liability if they don't wait for the normal "follow the evidence, build the case" flow. When there are big protests in big cities, the regional police de…

This summary is really interesting. Thank you for laying out an explanation for me.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#313

Post by [deleted] »

autokad wrote: post #307
robotresearcher wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks Normalized for population, in the US the rate is 3X for black people, and a white person's expectation to be killed by police is less than the average. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

and you could do the SAME thing with black people and homicide and aggravated assault rates. Then you would go on to say those particular rates are racist to say. Are you ready to stop rationalizing away the deaths that everyone is facing and stop arguing over skin color and start talking about police brutality? or do you want to keep arguing about something besides the point? if so, why?

[deleted]

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#314

Post by mempko »

Police escalating a peaceful protest to a violent one is part of the plan. It's a feature not a bug for police.

They do this to scare regular folks from not participating in protests. Because good and honest people will stay home if they worry about getting hurt.

The goal of the police is to make protests undesirable and that's what they do.

Undercover cops, for example have been video taped in many instances of breaking store windows abd starting fires. The goal being to give ab excuse for police to disperse crowds.

I know many don't believe me but veteran protesters under this. Go to a protest and find out for yourself.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#315

Post by kuzimoto »

komali2 wrote: post #308
kuzimoto wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only after a police station was burned down. I feel like that's more coincidence than anything > This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard I bet there is tons of anecdotal data to support any claim. There needs to be aggregated data that shows it's happening in high enough rates to be a "systemic" issue. > Would you merely "lose your…

> In most countries bystanders are not obligated to assist. So nothing would happen to you? Ooooor you'd be an accessory to murder.

It would have to be proven that you assisted in some way.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#316

Post by scollet »

briefcomment wrote: post #86
flaque wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else is there to assume? That police, across the country, are wildly incompetent?

Yes. Don't let anyone become an officer. Raise officer pay and benefits. Also, give credit to the police have done well and are well intentioned, which must be throughout the majority of the population, otherwise the US would have become unlivable decades ago.

Wow, imagine being able to drive wherever you want.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#317

Post by robotresearcher »

autokad wrote: post #307
robotresearcher wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks Normalized for population, in the US the rate is 3X for black people, and a white person's expectation to be killed by police is less than the average. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

and you could do the SAME thing with black people and homicide and aggravated assault rates. Then you would go on to say those particular rates are racist to say. Are you ready to stop rationalizing away the deaths that everyone is facing and stop arguing over skin color and start talking about police brutality? or do you want to keep arguing about something besides the point? if so, why?

No one is arguing we don't have a police brutality problem. I'm not sure why you hear that.

I think a large rate difference between white and black is meaningful information. Why do you prefer that information not be added?

> Then you would go on to say those particular rates are racist to say.

That didn't happen either. Your expectations are off.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#318

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

komali2 wrote: post #241
briefcomment wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't understand the power the government can wield if there is "justification" for it. The only way to have the government serve us instead of control us is to be loud, in the majority, and peaceful. At least in a country like the US.

What you're saying hinges on the people never stepping outside the bounds of what the US government deems acceptable. Consider that the US government deems what we want (no more police brutality) unacceptable, by definition, we need to work outside the system to solve the problem. It's similar to 2a people I've met that think that somehow the constitution guarantees their right to overthrow the US government if it be…

It's not just about what the US government deems acceptable, it's about what the US people deem acceptable. There's a breaking point where the general public will start demanding that looters be shot as a matter of pure self-defense - and as you can see in right-leaning media outlets, some people are already there.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#319

Post by thephyber »

rodgerd wrote: post #117
briefcomment wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Don't let anyone become an officer. Raise officer pay and benefits. Also, give credit to the police have done well and are well intentioned, which must be throughout the majority of the population, otherwise the US would have become unlivable decades ago.

An SFPD officer involved in misconduct during the protests was cited as having a salary north of $200,000. How much do officers need to be paid not to shoot journalists in the eyes?

The published California LEO pay is in "total compensation", which includes benefits and maybe retirement contributions. Police work hourly, not salary, so probably not too difficult to have a base pay of $100k and some overtime to get to total comp of $200k.

I'm not defending sociopaths with badges, but the $200k doesn't sound outlandish to me, especially if the department is on a hiring freeze. It's expensive to hire talent (which is what a trained officer is) in California.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#320

Post by lsh123 »

ashtonkem wrote: post #251
lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

Not “any” means.

Please watch this and imagine that this was your mom:

https://www.facebook.com/501974795/posts/10159362491674796/

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