Live data from Hacker News

De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

fivethirtyeight.com

71–80 of 799 posts

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#71

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

Minneapolis Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo Seattle Chief of Police: http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/... St Louis Chief of Police: http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml Atlanta Chief of Police: https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_s... Chicago Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) Oakland Chie…

Yeah, I'm sure Arradondo is calling the shots vs Bob Kroll

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#72
post #4

Of course it does. But politicians who ramp up the rhetoric and threaten to have people killed does not. Flint and Camden and other cities where the police sat down or walked with the protestors have no issues. People connecting to people with understanding rarely results in violence. I think places where the police still walk a beat (or other regular outreach over a wide area) and get to know the locals rarely have…

"As they would rather not tax people to pay for it" I think you may be underestimating how much cities dedicate their budgets to police spending: "Mayor Eric Garcetti's 2020-2021 city budget gives police $3.14 billion out of the city's $10.5 billion. That's the single biggest line item, dwarfing, say, emergency management ($6 million) and economic development ($30 million)." (In fact, LAPD is getting pay raises while…

Personally, I'd love California to try a ballot initiative putting a 10-15%-of-budget cap on police spending in cities. I think it could easily pass, and if NYPD's 2017 strike is any indication, crime rate could actually go down [1]. NYPD ended their strike voluntarily because city officials were recognizing that maybe they weren't as necessary, after all!

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crocodile tears. Police chiefs knew all along about the deplorable amount of racism and casual violence on their forces, they just chose to ignore them. Now the political winds are shifting and they have to go along to keep their jobs.

Change does not require looting and beatings does it? Wouldn't looting and beatings simply give the police more power, and be counter productive against making police more accountable? Looters and those who bash people's skulls in are opportunists who don't care about change. The ones that want change see their opportunity slipping away.

Yeah that's what people said for twenty years. So people wrote letters and went to court and the media. Turns out that didn't work.

Actually, have you seen Daniel Shaver's killing? No riot. Outcome: that policeman collects a pension and rests easy at home. So it is established your technique doesn't work.

When the good things don't work, eventually you get the bad things. That's not even through people changing. It's through the people changing. I remember reading in the WSJ or the NYT about one particular time in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood's recent history when there was a bit of tension between their young firebrand wing and their older mellower leaders (though both were still religious). At the time, the older leader was in hiding (on account of the military looking for him) and there was a bit of violence so he came out to appeal for peace and was promptly arrested. This had the predictable effect of weakening the mellow side and turning the organization more radical (or so the article predicted).

So you don't have to turn people into rioters, you can just destroy the credibility of everyone calling for peaceful resolutions by dismissing them out of hand repeatedly. Eventually no one will listen to them. And then the only people with power in those groups are the firebrands. A complete own-goal if you're looking for peace.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#74

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

Minneapolis Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medaria_Arradondo Seattle Chief of Police: http://www.seattle.gov/police/about-us/about-the-department/... St Louis Chief of Police: http://www.slmpd.org/chief_of_police.shtml Atlanta Chief of Police: https://www.projectq.us/atlanta/atlanta_police_chief_erika_s... Chicago Chief of Police: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brown_(police_officer) Oakland Chie…

If the Chief's are good, why aren't the cops good? And more specifically, why are their peers complicit when one "makes a mistake", which is an incredibly generous statement when the incident involves losing a human life. Pointing to a few good eggs doesn't bless all of them.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#75
post #15

"Of course, as Gillham pointed out, negotiating and managing a protest can’t really work if the protest wasn’t organized ahead of time. That goes double, he said, if the topic of the protest is police brutality. It’s hard to negotiate with someone about the best way to demand they be fired." This point is important. The police can't police themselves, and for a lasting solution to this problem to emerge there'll have…

> wasn’t organized ahead of time Protests might have been unorganized, but riots most certainly are organized. Torching a police car carries a minimum 5 year sentence. It's not the protesters who are doing that. Moreover, it is still being "organized". Someone keeps dropping off pallets with bricks. There are agitator leaflets all over twitter. People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from…

> People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from a thick wad of bills.

It would be trivial to contrive that exact scenario.

I’m not say that it was contrived, just that it would be trivial to do so.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crocodile tears. Police chiefs knew all along about the deplorable amount of racism and casual violence on their forces, they just chose to ignore them. Now the political winds are shifting and they have to go along to keep their jobs.

Change does not require looting and beatings does it? Wouldn't looting and beatings simply give the police more power, and be counter productive against making police more accountable? Looters and those who bash people's skulls in are opportunists who don't care about change. The ones that want change see their opportunity slipping away.

If the change hasn’t happened yet, what other options are left? Looting? Probably not. Protests until meaningful reform occurs? Might help if nothing else has.

A government is supposed to be afraid of the electorate (Jefferson). They’ve lost that fear, and you see that trickle down from legislators all the way to law enforcement.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#77
post #28

Imagine being a cop and having to deal with stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4L97igDjY They literally save this man's life and he kills the guy who saved his life. Cops don't work in a safe space. Years of working in a violent and hateful environment must take a serious toll on them.

While there's a kernel of validity to what you're saying, cops in every state and every nation have to deal with a violent and hateful environment. The variation in outcomes suggests something else is at play .

Variation of outcome in other countries can be easily explained by low availability of weapons (that the case of most places): policemen are less susceptible to make use of their weapons when people they arrest as low probability of holding one.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#78
We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that.

The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organizers meeting and jointly managing protests, but that this practice fell into disuse after the 1999 Seattle WTO meeting in which protesters violated the negotiated terms and police responded with violence.

While some recent (and ongoing) protests have turned violent, many didn't. In the coming months we'll have time to do a postmortem. I strongly suspect spontaneous protests without organization will be found to have the most potential for violence, while those with organizers committed to self-policing and, ideally, cooperating with police will be found to have fared much better.

Individual people may be intelligent and responsible, but crowds have their own rules of behaviour and need to be managed. Protests are more dangerous when unplanned or when their organizers give no thought to self-policing.

There will always be organizers who want violence because it reliably brings press coverage and attention to their protests, but social media is also creating new problems. Coordinating a large number of people to show up at the same time and place used to take considerable planning and effort. When you have to work hard just to get the even to happen, why wouldn't you plan how it will unfold as well? Now a couple of tweets or posts on the right reddit subs will suffice. How can police meet with the organizer of a protest when it's really just some dude who had a lot of social media followers and might not even bother showing up himself?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#79
@dang ppl on both sides of this discussion have lost all decorum. Can we have a moratorium on this subject until ppl calm down enough to not resort to reddit style replies and responses that fit better in 2005 blog comment sections which are essentially just flamewar bait

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#80
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the cops on each force they cherry-picked. The fact that they are chief of police means nothing, but that you don't understand the institutions involved and how they work. This stuff is in front of SCOTUS and congress right now. It's not simple and it is very broken. > The list of police chiefs & other officials is solid. The list is solid ignorance of the institutions involved. It focuses on race of one part of…

The list of police chiefs is solid. I share your concerns over Qualified Immunity (and other problems). The relevant discussions are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910 ("As Qualified Immunity Takes Center Stage, More Delay from SCOTUS") and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386260 (a subthread of this discussion) [edit] >It focuses on race of one part of police leadership >Highlighting pol…

> The relevant discussions are here

Squirmy

Post reply on HN