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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

fivethirtyeight.com

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#61
post #4

Of course it does. But politicians who ramp up the rhetoric and threaten to have people killed does not. Flint and Camden and other cities where the police sat down or walked with the protestors have no issues. People connecting to people with understanding rarely results in violence. I think places where the police still walk a beat (or other regular outreach over a wide area) and get to know the locals rarely have…

"As they would rather not tax people to pay for it"

I think you may be underestimating how much cities dedicate their budgets to police spending:

"Mayor Eric Garcetti's 2020-2021 city budget gives police $3.14 billion out of the city's $10.5 billion. That's the single biggest line item, dwarfing, say, emergency management ($6 million) and economic development ($30 million)." (In fact, LAPD is getting pay raises while LA teachers are getting a pay decrease)

"New York City spends more on policing than it does on the Departments of Health, Homeless Services, Housing Preservation and Development, and Youth and Community Development combined."

"A whopping 39 percent of Chicago's 2017 budget went to police, and still the department got even more money, peaking in 2020 with a 7 percent increase to nearly $1.8 billion."

Note, this is, to the best of my knowledge, solely police, not even adjacent forces like e.g. fire departments or ambulances.

[1] https://www.gq.com/story/cops-cost-billions

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#62
post #4

Of course it does. But politicians who ramp up the rhetoric and threaten to have people killed does not. Flint and Camden and other cities where the police sat down or walked with the protestors have no issues. People connecting to people with understanding rarely results in violence. I think places where the police still walk a beat (or other regular outreach over a wide area) and get to know the locals rarely have…

> But cities don't want to spend that kind of money on these things as they would rather not tax people to pay for it. I'm certainly no expert in police budgeting, but when you see some police forces literally buying tanks, at least in some cases there must be room for money to be better spent. John Oliver did an interesting story on police militarization after the Ferguson riots following the shooting of Michael Bro…

They're not buying tanks, they're being gifted them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_program

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crocodile tears. Police chiefs knew all along about the deplorable amount of racism and casual violence on their forces, they just chose to ignore them. Now the political winds are shifting and they have to go along to keep their jobs.

Strange to see wild narratives on HN about police racism and violence that have no basis in reality.

Gotta love a three-hour old account trying to convince people that police racism and violence isn't real. Are we twitter now @dang? The astroturfing hasn't been subtle lately.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#64
post #28

Imagine being a cop and having to deal with stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4L97igDjY They literally save this man's life and he kills the guy who saved his life. Cops don't work in a safe space. Years of working in a violent and hateful environment must take a serious toll on them.

While there's a kernel of validity to what you're saying, cops in every state and every nation have to deal with a violent and hateful environment. The variation in outcomes suggests something else is at play .

to be fair, in other nations rarely is there a risk of a gun being pulled on you

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#65
post #3

Yes, but police are functionally just wannabe soldiers, without the actual training. They want to beat people up. They want to be tough guys who have no consequences. Talking about how to fix policing means nothing until: * police go to jail * officers who do not report other officers go to jail * bosses/chiefs etc who are aware of abuses of power and brutality and do not arrest those officers go to jail * police are…

What’s striking to me is the stark differences in policing with the US vs other common law/Anglosphere countries, where policing is by consent. I guess the other countries were still much more under British influence during the formation of policing?

US Police and the US public see the police as enforcers in a caste system where the public is at the bottom, the enforcers are on top of them, with the lords above them.

So the police aren't on the side of the public because they see the public as chaotic animals, to be managed lest they descend into anarchy. That's the general view and you can see that in The Thin Blue Line. In the UK, you can make fun of the policeman and he only wins by being better at banter. In America, that's something you don't want to do if you don't want to find yourself rapidly "disobeying a lawful order".

Ever since I moved to America I realized one thing that I really should have known before. Americans have a culture of strict legalism (see "refused a lawful order", "resisted arrest", "disobeying a police officer") and are consequently culturally strongly predisposed to following authority.

I really should have known this because it's sort of a universal human phenomenon where the thing that you protest that you have a lot of is often the thing you lack the most of. The City of Joy is likely one of sorrow, the City of God is likely one forsaken, and the Land of the Free is likely where you can't legally be in public the way you were born. Still, I do love America, but I have to admit to being disappointed to find that where I hoped to find free spirited people who find restrictions on their freedom unacceptable I instead found a place where the majority actually just wants strongmen and enforcers, just like anywhere else.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#66

Imagine being a cop and having to deal with stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4L97igDjY They literally save this man's life and he kills the guy who saved his life. Cops don't work in a safe space. Years of working in a violent and hateful environment must take a serious toll on them.

Also watching that video, the cops were grabbing at his waist where there was a gun, If the guy was just saved by firefighters he may be in an altered state so antagonizing him about carrying seems pretty reckless.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#67

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

Are you joking? Do you not realize that most people are reasonable and do not want distress and despair? Do you fall out of that overwhelming majority?

What else is there to assume? That police, across the country, are wildly incompetent?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#68
post #44
post #3

Yes, but police are functionally just wannabe soldiers, without the actual training. They want to beat people up. They want to be tough guys who have no consequences. Talking about how to fix policing means nothing until: * police go to jail * officers who do not report other officers go to jail * bosses/chiefs etc who are aware of abuses of power and brutality and do not arrest those officers go to jail * police are…

Can you elaborate on the IQ restrictions?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...

> A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.

> The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#69
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people want mayhem, but I think your comment is wrong. > Pro-police forces WANT mayhem ... it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence. I don’t think that typical “pro-police forces” want to own the narrative of their cause being racist and violent.

> I don’t think that typical “pro-police forces” want to own the narrative of their cause being racist and violent I think they do. Many cops seem to be very racist and very violent. It doesn't seem like they care who knows it. Even when they do care, they might not turn on body-cams which should be a fireable offense and now it finally is in at least one case in Kentucky.

Many cops seem to be very racist and very violent

Citation needed. I think most cops are just normal people trying to earn a living.

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