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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#121
post #28

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…

I think a lot of what you're describing ties in with the general lack of "third places" in the US. College is basically one giant third place, and that community experience is hard to find elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#122
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, why won't anyone think of the poor administrators who get paid obnoxious salaries for doing effectively none of the labor that goes into providing an education for the students.

While in general I agree that there are too many administrators at many universities, this type of argument is ineffective without pointing out exactly which administrators. And I find that once you try to do that, no one agrees which administrators should be cut. Do you want to cut the administrators responsible for diversity and inclusion? Or the administrators responsible for tech transfer? Or the Dean of the Coll…

While in general I agree that there are too many administrators at many universities, this type of argument is ineffective without pointing out exactly which administrators. And I find that once you try to do that, no one agrees which administrators should be cut. Do you want to cut the administrators responsible for diversity and inclusion? Or the administrators responsible for tech transfer? Or the Dean of the College? Or administrators that manage grants? Or administrators of admissions, or athletics, title IX, or school of medicine?

For a start, let's cut any administrator that was not considered needed for the proper running of a university 30 years ago. So we can start with the administrators responsible for diversity and inclusion and tech transfer. You can probably also get rid of most of the administrators administering grants, athletics, and title IX.

Give us some specifics to discuss. Because while almost everyone agrees administration needs to be trimmed, if everyone just wants to keep the ones they think are important and there's not much overlap, then there's clearly no way to do this.

The argument, "We can't cut anyone if we can't all agree on who to cut" is a recipe for, "We will cut everyone after we go bankrupt." Those bankruptcies are already starting. And before COVID-19 is over, plenty of universities that can't figure out how to do layoffs of administrators are going to have to do just that.

Education has been on an unsustainable path for decades. It is widely recognized that it is unsustainable. As Stein's law says, "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop." But before we get there we get to see the truth of Stanisford's corollaries, "It will go on a lot longer than we think" and "It will end badly when it does stop."

It has gone on a lot longer than I thought it could 20 years ago. However COVID-19 has changed the equation enough to end business as usual, and now we get to see how bad the ending is. The more that administrators cling to keeping business as usual, the worse that they will make things for themselves.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#123
post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

> Alumni have been furious for years now, this isn't helping.

This is why I stopped all the donations to my alma mater. Why should I donate to an institution whose tuition has risen 300% over the last 15 years? If they wanted donations, they shouldn't have taught us about inflation then because now we can see them for the predatory scumbags they really are. And this increase in cost doesn't even pay for professors. They are getting shafted to the point where that is no longer a viable career option for any but a lucky few. Hell, for the quarter million plus it would take to get my bachelor's degree today, I'm pretty sure I can hire my own dedicated professors, get better instruction, finish earlier, and learn more. Or spend a tiny fraction of that living in Europe and then attend university there for free or a few hundred dollars a semester, which probably includes a bus pass and is less than I would spend on books in the US.

Only in a society of extreme anti-intellectualism would public K-12 education be such complete and utter shit and university cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and be unaffordable by basically anyone not in the upper class or lucky enough to get a scholarship. The children are our future and extreme stupidity is already here and has been here for a long time, so there is little to no hope of reversing this trend of anti-intellectualism and stupidity that most of the nation is beholden to.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#124
post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

Maybe international students have begun to replace donations from alumni, so the university sees its alumni as more of a product than a relationship

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#125
post #28

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…

Believe it or not people who don't go to college can have similar experiences as well.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that for Shirley Jackson. as of 2015 her monetary compensation was: $945,000 in salary $276,474 in bonuses $31,874 in nontaxable benefits $5.8 million in deferred compensation plus a 19,500sq.ft. mansion. :| p.s. hope you enjoy troy :)

Fun read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Ann_Jackson#Rensselaer...

A 2015 Time Magazine article cited Jackson as the highest-paid college president ... for a stunning $7.1 million in total. That works out to more than $1,000 per student at her school".

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#127
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which college is this, if you don't mind me asking? I mean the dean of HR is making 1million ...

BTW for California state employees including the public universities, the information is public so you can actually look it up. https://transparentcalifornia.com/agencies/salaries/#univers...

I think most states publish this information as well, at least for employees making over a certain amount.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#128
post #28

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…

I think the "experience" is vastly overrated with the one exception that it helped me meet my wife.

Sounds like a pretty big exception

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities are not arguing this. If you read the article, you’ll see that the universities in question have already, voluntarily, given partial refunds to students prior to these lawsuits. The lawsuits are demanding even more refunds while the students still want to collect the remote education. If the Universities were faced with this decision up front, it would have been better for them to furlough all employees…

>it’s not reasonable to demand universities operate at a loss to provide the remote education at a rate less than it costs them to operate I feel its not reasonable to ask students to pay more than fair market value for what they receive regardless of operational costs. They should refund up to what similar online schools charge today. If it costs the auto dealer as much as a new BMW to deliver a used Toyota, that is…

If the grocery store is charging too much for oranges, do you take them to court too? Or do you just go to another grocery store...

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard Extension Campus offers quite a few. While not viewed as favorably as an on-campus degree from Harvard, still valued higher than an on-campus degree from many other institutions. https://www.extension.harvard.edu/academics/bachelor-liberal...

Interesting, it's a BS in liberal arts but offers CS as a field of study? Seems odd.

A liberal arts degree still gives you the skills to pursue a specific industry for jobs. It is just that your education is much broader than a typical university. So 12-15 CS courses, instead of 20-25 CS
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