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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#31

Post by gbear605 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #21
klmadfejno wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These companies aren’t arbitrarily choosing to educate people remotely. They’re adapting to the situation. That doesn't really matter though. Like, it sucks, but they're giving a much shittier product and charging full price. Your example about people being less productive is not relevant because there's no doubt that the quality of education is much worse.

Do you feel the same way about engineers working remotely? Is someone working remotely and communicating over Zoom delivering significantly lower quality work and therefore deserving of a lower compensation? Your assumption that there’s “no doubt” about the quality of education being worse is not a good assumption. Educators are working overtime to make the most of the remote learning situation.

Educators are working their best, but that doesn’t mean that it is equal, because the stresses that have been put on students and educators are significant and can’t easily be worked around.

Also some things are simply impossible to do remotely, like music lessons or chemistry labs.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#32

Post by xiaolingxiao »

ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

which college is this, if you don't mind me asking? I mean the dean of HR is making 1million ...

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#33

Post by mikeg8 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20
michaelt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe a car dealer couldn't deliver your Ferrari due to difficult circumstances beyond their control, and giving you a Corolla is the best they can adapt to the situation. But they're still only delivering a Corolla so you don't have to pay the price of the Ferrari they promised you

But you’re not car shopping and this isn’t a Ferrari vs. Corolla scenario. If you read the article, you’ll see that the Universities did give partial refunds. These students are demanding even more refunds, while still collecting the education. The education is still delivered, just through a different medium. If we believe that engineers can work just as effectively remotely, why can’t we believe that educators and…

Remote work in engineering is completely different then remote learning. Engineers are self-directed, a particular type of thinker. Maybe the professors are just as effective at performing remote work, but that does not mean that all students can just flip a switch a perform at the same levels.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#34

Post by ralph84 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #8
michaelt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a lot of cases the money has already been spent Then they can take out loans or go bankrupt. I mean, if you paid for a Ferrari and the car dealer can only give you a Corolla, they owe you a refund - irrespective of how big their rent and salary bills may be.

If they were forced to choose between going bankrupt and having traditional in-person classes, they would be offering in-person classes right now and allowing people to “opt-out” to the remote version. These companies aren’t arbitrarily choosing to educate people remotely. They’re adapting to the situation. Likewise, it would be unreasonable for employers to cut people’s compensation for working remotely under the as…

Employers are cutting people’s compensation.

In any case, completely different scenarios. Except in very rare cases, employers don’t make huge upfront payments before the work is done. College students do.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#35

Post by PragmaticPulp »

jkingsbery wrote: post #26

I don't know about the legal question, but I think universities are setting themselves up for pain by arguing that the online experience they've been offering isn't substantially different from the in-person experience they had been offering. It's easy to imagine people calling their bluff on this, choosing to do remote learning even after COVID-19 goes away if it will save $100k+ over 4 years, and a subsequent contr…

Universities are not arguing this.

If you read the article, you’ll see that the universities in question have already, voluntarily, given partial refunds to students prior to these lawsuits.

The lawsuits are demanding even more refunds while the students still want to collect the remote education. If the Universities were faced with this decision up front, it would have been better for them to furlough all employees and simply delay education until after Coronavirus.

Instead, they made the best of the situation and tried to do right by the students as best they could within the financial, legal, and ethical constraints of Coronavirus. In my opinion, it’s not reasonable to demand universities operate at a loss to provide the remote education at a rate less than it costs them to operate (which I suspect may be happening already in some cases). We’re all making compromises under the circumstances.

I’d be more sympathetic if these students were requesting to defer their education until after Coronavirus and were willing to forgo all education and credits in the mean time. Demanding both the education and a refund isn’t exactly fair.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#36

Post by renlo »

paulcole wrote: post #11

Investors should step in and pay the kids off (since these lawsuits are either guaranteed losers or will take years to settle). Then in exchange take a % of their future earnings. Vary the % and timeline based on the degree they're seeking.

What's in it for the students though? Would just make things more expensive for them.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#37

Post by chii »

jawns wrote: post #28

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…

> It's dorm life, it's extracurriculars, it's meeting people and forming friendships and hanging out with them outside of class time.

that's a community. You shouldn't have to need to pay to be part of a community. By gating this behind an expensive college tuition fee, it causes separation in society and is a cause for the inequalities of opportunities in the world. IMHO, tertiary education should be "free" (that is, a loan which is almost zero interest, and only needs to be paid back when earning above some "high" tax rate).

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#38

Post by albntomat0 »

jawns wrote: post #28

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…

I agree with your overall point, but one of the issues with online learning is the credential received isn't the same value as an in-person one. There are an increasing number of exceptions like the Georgia Tech online masters, but I'm not aware of a high-end online bachelors degree.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#39

Post by karagenit »

ouid wrote: post #13
paulcole wrote: post #11

Investors should step in and pay the kids off (since these lawsuits are either guaranteed losers or will take years to settle). Then in exchange take a % of their future earnings. Vary the % and timeline based on the degree they're seeking.

This is indentured servitude, and expressly forbidden in the United States.

What?? This is literally the definition of a student loan: the bank gives the student some money now, and the student agrees to give them a certain amount of money out of their paycheck for a number of years after graduation.

Indentured servitude involves work without pay for a period of time. Quit talking about things you don't understand.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#40

Post by christiansakai »

ouid wrote: post #13
paulcole wrote: post #11

Investors should step in and pay the kids off (since these lawsuits are either guaranteed losers or will take years to settle). Then in exchange take a % of their future earnings. Vary the % and timeline based on the degree they're seeking.

This is indentured servitude, and expressly forbidden in the United States.

It seems better than student loans. If the students don't make an income or make a lower income, then the percentage is lower as well.
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