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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#21

Post by PragmaticPulp »

klmadfejno wrote: post #15
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were forced to choose between going bankrupt and having traditional in-person classes, they would be offering in-person classes right now and allowing people to “opt-out” to the remote version. These companies aren’t arbitrarily choosing to educate people remotely. They’re adapting to the situation. Likewise, it would be unreasonable for employers to cut people’s compensation for working remotely under the as…

> These companies aren’t arbitrarily choosing to educate people remotely. They’re adapting to the situation. That doesn't really matter though. Like, it sucks, but they're giving a much shittier product and charging full price. Your example about people being less productive is not relevant because there's no doubt that the quality of education is much worse.

Do you feel the same way about engineers working remotely? Is someone working remotely and communicating over Zoom delivering significantly lower quality work and therefore deserving of a lower compensation?

Your assumption that there’s “no doubt” about the quality of education being worse is not a good assumption. Educators are working overtime to make the most of the remote learning situation.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#22

Post by vmchale »

ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

If anything the pandemic seems to have made people less patient with self-justifying administrators.

I don't think this can continue. Professors/teachers add value for students, you can't cut them indefinitely when they are now so much of the reason that the online college experience has value.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#23

Post by barry-cotter »

ouid wrote: post #13
paulcole wrote: post #11

Investors should step in and pay the kids off (since these lawsuits are either guaranteed losers or will take years to settle). Then in exchange take a % of their future earnings. Vary the % and timeline based on the degree they're seeking.

This is indentured servitude, and expressly forbidden in the United States.

No it isn’t.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_share_agreement

> An income share agreement (or ISA) is a financial structure in which an individual or organization provides something of value (often a fixed amount of money) to a recipient who, in exchange, agrees to pay back a percentage of their income for a fixed number of years.

...

> Common Concerns Indentured Servitude

> However, advocates of ISAs contend that since students have no legal obligation to work in a particular industry, and since it is illegal for investors to pressure them into a certain career, students are no more “indentured” than those with a student loan. In fact, someone with a traditional student loan has less choice than someone with an ISA, because the student with a loan needs to be in a career where they make at least enough income to cover their monthly payment, whereas someone with an ISA can choose to never make any money, and would never owe the investor a dime.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#24

Post by PragmaticPulp »

cg505 wrote: post #18

> "In my personal opinion, I can deliver the same quality of education online as I could in person." Although this statement is debatable to begin with, it also misses a huge point. Even if the quality of an online education is the same, many students cannot learn as anywhere near as well in that environment. They paid tens of thousands of dollars for in-person learning, so for that to be replaced with something enti…

As the article stated, many of these universities did give partial refunds. The students are demanding even more refunds while still collecting the education.

I’m curious: Would you consider the same argument valid for workers forced to work remotely? Would you be upset if a company decided to cut workers’ pay in half during COVID19 remote work under the assumption that some workers can’t be as efficient remotely? After all, the company paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for in-person work, but now they’re getting potentially worse remote work.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#25

Post by asutekku »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20
michaelt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe a car dealer couldn't deliver your Ferrari due to difficult circumstances beyond their control, and giving you a Corolla is the best they can adapt to the situation. But they're still only delivering a Corolla so you don't have to pay the price of the Ferrari they promised you

But you’re not car shopping and this isn’t a Ferrari vs. Corolla scenario. If you read the article, you’ll see that the Universities did give partial refunds. These students are demanding even more refunds, while still collecting the education. The education is still delivered, just through a different medium. If we believe that engineers can work just as effectively remotely, why can’t we believe that educators and…

People do not pay to get only the education. Yes, it is a prominent part of it but more important are the facilities, the community and the networking capabilities. With remote teaching, everything else except learning is lost.

There’s no reason to pay the sums the universities are charging considering you can get the same education from almost any university.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#26

Post by jkingsbery »

I don't know about the legal question, but I think universities are setting themselves up for pain by arguing that the online experience they've been offering isn't substantially different from the in-person experience they had been offering. It's easy to imagine people calling their bluff on this, choosing to do remote learning even after COVID-19 goes away if it will save $100k+ over 4 years, and a subsequent contraction in the number of universities we need to educate people.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#27

Post by MattGaiser »

michaelt wrote: post #4
easterncalculus wrote: post #2

Refunds are a pretty hard thing for universities to do though, in a lot of cases the money has already been spent. If the question is how much they charge for next semester (assuming closure or mostly online learning) then I think there's a stronger argument to not charge students as much. The student perspective is basically that you're already paying so much, that the least the university can do is do good on what'…

> in a lot of cases the money has already been spent Then they can take out loans or go bankrupt. I mean, if you paid for a Ferrari and the car dealer can only give you a Corolla, they owe you a refund - irrespective of how big their rent and salary bills may be.

Did the contract specify in person?

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#28

Post by jawns »

The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service.

If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the content; they don't need (or have time for) the on-campus experience aspect of college.

The on-campus college experience encompasses so much more than just acquiring knowledge based on what's taught in class. It's dorm life, it's extracurriculars, it's meeting people and forming friendships and hanging out with them outside of class time. It's being in a place where there are so many interesting people to meet. It's being in a relatively forgiving environment where practically everyone is figuring out how to live on their own (or with roommates) for the first time. Being physically present in that environment is a key draw.

For me, the VAST majority of the value I got out of my on-campus education was the stuff that happened outside of class time. And I'm not even talking about the friendships or the networking or the fun. I'm talking about my actual education. For instance, I learned a lot more about journalism by working for the campus newspaper than from classroom instruction. And I don't think that atmosphere or energy can be easily recreated virtually.

I say that, by the way, as a remote worker who has had to spend a lot of time convincing managers and higher-ups that yes, remote workers can be as productive and energized as in-office workers. Remote workers are generally happier when they're not looking to their job to supply all of their social needs. But an on-campus experience is much more all-encompassing in terms of what needs and desires it fulfills for post-adolescents.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#29

Post by gbear605 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20
michaelt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe a car dealer couldn't deliver your Ferrari due to difficult circumstances beyond their control, and giving you a Corolla is the best they can adapt to the situation. But they're still only delivering a Corolla so you don't have to pay the price of the Ferrari they promised you

But you’re not car shopping and this isn’t a Ferrari vs. Corolla scenario. If you read the article, you’ll see that the Universities did give partial refunds. These students are demanding even more refunds, while still collecting the education. The education is still delivered, just through a different medium. If we believe that engineers can work just as effectively remotely, why can’t we believe that educators and…

I believe three things:

1) In a normal situation, some people are equally productive or more productive working remotely, and they should be able to.

2) In the current situation, almost everyone is less productive working from home, because they weren’t prepared and they have to deal with other stresses (family at home, too small of a space, fear of infection, etc.)

3) In the current situation, educators are less able to teach online than they would in person in a normal situation, and similarly students aren’t able to learn as effectively.

It can both be true that working remotely in a normal situation should be an option while this situation makes it harder to get a good education.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#30

Post by jhart99 »

whyhow wrote: post #19
moneywoes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it private or public

It's probably public since he knows their salaries. you can get a hold of most college employee salaries through state ran databases.

You can also pull salaries of key personnel for non-profits from their tax forms which covers manu(most) private universities.
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