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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#91

Post by barry-cotter »

ouid wrote: post #75
barry-cotter wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_share_agreement > An income share agreement (or ISA) is a financial structure in which an individual or organization provides something of value (often a fixed amount of money) to a recipient who, in exchange, agrees to pay back a percentage of their income for a fixed number of years. ... > Common Concerns Indentured Servitude > However, advocates of ISAs contend tha…

If it's not dischargeable in bankruptcy, it's indentured. The relevant question is "what is it acceptable to own?", and if your answer includes "human capital" your answer includes "people" and that makes you pro-slavery.

> If it's not dischargeable in bankruptcy, it's indentured.

In that case student debt is indenture and ISAs aren’t.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#92

Post by IdoRA »

mdszy wrote: post #60
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities are not arguing this. If you read the article, you’ll see that the universities in question have already, voluntarily, given partial refunds to students prior to these lawsuits. The lawsuits are demanding even more refunds while the students still want to collect the remote education. If the Universities were faced with this decision up front, it would have been better for them to furlough all employees…

Ah yes, why won't anyone think of the poor administrators who get paid obnoxious salaries for doing effectively none of the labor that goes into providing an education for the students.

Keep in mind that if you're not a professor, you're an administrator. Most university administrators are grossly underpaid relative to industry. Also keep in mind that the mission of public universities is more expansive than education for students.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#93

Post by aSplash0fDerp »

michaelt wrote: post #16
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were forced to choose between going bankrupt and having traditional in-person classes, they would be offering in-person classes right now and allowing people to “opt-out” to the remote version. These companies aren’t arbitrarily choosing to educate people remotely. They’re adapting to the situation. Likewise, it would be unreasonable for employers to cut people’s compensation for working remotely under the as…

And maybe a car dealer couldn't deliver your Ferrari due to difficult circumstances beyond their control, and giving you a Corolla is the best they can adapt to the situation. But they're still only delivering a Corolla so you don't have to pay the price of the Ferrari they promised you

Brilliant minds may have once lead education, healthcare and financial industries, but its probably more like a kit car Ferrari experience in modern times (the DNA is not there).

I've come across more and more articles about adjunct professors in poverty over the years, so the brilliance (and the brilliants) is definitely missing from the experience.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/it-keeps-you-...

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#94

Post by adminprof »

IdoRA wrote: post #92
mdszy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, why won't anyone think of the poor administrators who get paid obnoxious salaries for doing effectively none of the labor that goes into providing an education for the students.

Keep in mind that if you're not a professor, you're an administrator. Most university administrators are grossly underpaid relative to industry. Also keep in mind that the mission of public universities is more expansive than education for students.

I totally agree with you there. But note that there are people who are 50% professors, 50% administrator, For example, we have a VP of Campus Planning, a rotational position, who is 50% professor and 50% administrator while they are in that role. Then they revert back to being a professor after 3 years.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#95

Post by alistairSH »

albntomat0 wrote: post #66
alistairSH wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard Extension Campus offers quite a few. While not viewed as favorably as an on-campus degree from Harvard, still valued higher than an on-campus degree from many other institutions. https://www.extension.harvard.edu/academics/bachelor-liberal...

Nifty, I wasn't aware that existed. Still, there really isn't a viable online bachelors for the average 18 year old college applicant who is looking for a credential to use in the job market.

FWIW, HES doesn't require admissions - a prospective student simple registers for the first few required classes in the program. If successful in those, they continue on in the full program. I believe one of the courses is a research & writing survey that is reportedly quite difficult to pass.

So, still not an option for an average 18 year old. But, potentially a fantastic option for a smart 18 year old who wouldn't otherwise be able to attend Harvard (or other elite institution).

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#96

Post by [deleted] »

zbrozek wrote: post #74
ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

It was obvious while I was a student that the ratio of administrators to faculty was ridiculous. And the growth rate ratio between them was 3:1. At no point was it clear to me what real value they were adding. I was the captain of a more capital and real-estate intensive than average student group, and it was absolutely infuriating to try to figure out how to get anything done. There was always some new bureaucrat co…

[deleted]

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#97

Post by ben7799 »

cjmaria wrote: post #47
xiaolingxiao wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which college is this, if you don't mind me asking? I mean the dean of HR is making 1million ...

This sounds strikingly similar to what's going on at my school, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. President has a 5mm+ salary and took only a 5% pay cut while laying off (not furloughing!) 60 faculty members.

Bingo.. I wrote the original post, I went to RPI. Dr. Jackson started the spring of my senior year.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#98

Post by chriskanan »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #46
ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

Same at a neighboring city. They want to lay off workers due to COVID while they have doubled administrative staff over the last few years. And none of the administrators is going to get laid off. The plan is to have parks being cleaned by unpaid volunteers instead of city staff.

There was a post a day or two ago about how remote work makes it harder for people to value employees except as utilities, whereas if they work closely they value them more.

Top administrators are in charge of who gets cut, and they probably interact with other admins the most or rely on them personally for some task, so they are most sensitive to laying them off versus park staff (or faculty) who they don't interact with often, if at all. They aren't visible.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#99

Post by zxcvvcxz »

ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

Institutions that earn money without creating enough real productivity attract parasites.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#100

Post by jonkho »

ouid wrote: post #70
karagenit wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?? This is literally the definition of a student loan: the bank gives the student some money now, and the student agrees to give them a certain amount of money out of their paycheck for a number of years after graduation. Indentured servitude involves work without pay for a period of time. Quit talking about things you don't understand.

You own the fruits of the person's labor, undischargable in bankruptcy, until a debt is paid off. It is indentured servitude.

FYI: Student debt is not discharged by bankruptcy in the United States.
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