Few people I know with children in private schools(k-12) are planning on paying full tuition regardless of weather the next academic year is virtual or physical...
Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
61–70 of 238 posts
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#62The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…
The problem is, if you're going to fall back on that perspective, Real Life (TM) has all those things too, and it will continue to do so, for essentially free. There will be clusters of that sort of thing somewhere, just as there are "retirement communities" and "bedroom communities" and such. Universities certainly aren't bringing anywhere near enough value for their marginal improvement on those matters vs. what wo…
The counterpoint to your argument is that if it is so easy to create those types of communities for much less money than what universities are charging, why hasn't it happened?
I would guess that it's a combination of 1. not being as easy as it seems and 2. network effects. Because of the latter, you would basically have to persuade a large number of students to make the switch at the same time for them to feel as if they still have the social/professional networking they get from the on-campus experience.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#63I don't know about the legal question, but I think universities are setting themselves up for pain by arguing that the online experience they've been offering isn't substantially different from the in-person experience they had been offering. It's easy to imagine people calling their bluff on this, choosing to do remote learning even after COVID-19 goes away if it will save $100k+ over 4 years, and a subsequent contr…
Universities are not arguing this. If you read the article, you’ll see that the universities in question have already, voluntarily, given partial refunds to students prior to these lawsuits. The lawsuits are demanding even more refunds while the students still want to collect the remote education. If the Universities were faced with this decision up front, it would have been better for them to furlough all employees…
> "When universities across the U.S. shut their doors because of the coronavirus pandemic and sent students home, many did offer partial refunds of dorm and activities fees."
It comes down to the amount of the refund. Students are still receiving something online, but less than they'd receive in person, both in quality of education (e.g. no chemistry labs) and everything else that physical attendance comes with. Arguing for a higher discount factor seems fine to me, and probably depends on the amount the college has already agreed to.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#64Refunds are a pretty hard thing for universities to do though, in a lot of cases the money has already been spent. If the question is how much they charge for next semester (assuming closure or mostly online learning) then I think there's a stronger argument to not charge students as much. The student perspective is basically that you're already paying so much, that the least the university can do is do good on what'…
Sure and and in some cases these universities have multi-billion dollar endowments.
These universities operate more like hedge funds that offer education on the side.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is indentured servitude, and expressly forbidden in the United States.
No it isn’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_share_agreement > An income share agreement (or ISA) is a financial structure in which an individual or organization provides something of value (often a fixed amount of money) to a recipient who, in exchange, agrees to pay back a percentage of their income for a fixed number of years. ... > Common Concerns Indentured Servitude > However, advocates of ISAs contend tha…
Someone who does not make any money doesn't need to care about student loans either. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the debt collectors can only collect what exists. They can't force you into the debtors prison. As long as you don't have anything, you don't have to worry about anyone coming after you (in the USA).
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with your overall point, but one of the issues with online learning is the credential received isn't the same value as an in-person one. There are an increasing number of exceptions like the Georgia Tech online masters, but I'm not aware of a high-end online bachelors degree.
Harvard Extension Campus offers quite a few. While not viewed as favorably as an on-campus degree from Harvard, still valued higher than an on-campus degree from many other institutions. https://www.extension.harvard.edu/academics/bachelor-liberal...
Nifty, I wasn't aware that existed.
Still, there really isn't a viable online bachelors for the average 18 year old college applicant who is looking for a credential to use in the job market.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
People do not pay to get only the education. Yes, it is a prominent part of it but more important are the facilities, the community and the networking capabilities. With remote teaching, everything else except learning is lost. There’s no reason to pay the sums the universities are charging considering you can get the same education from almost any university.
> There’s no reason to pay the sums the universities are charging considering you can get the same education from almost any university. I think you’re arguing against something other than the Coronavirus and remote education situation at this point.
No I am not. Due the current circumstances, the universities are not able to provide the facilities and the networking capabilities to the students so they should not be required to pay the full amount.
Also, as the students are going to be home anyway, the differences between universities shrink. If the education is somewhat similar in a university A and university B, but university A is five times more expensive during the normal times, why should the students of university A pay five times as much as the students at the university B. They have lost the reason why they pay so much for it.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Remote work in engineering is completely different then remote learning. Engineers are self-directed, a particular type of thinker. Maybe the professors are just as effective at performing remote work, but that does not mean that all students can just flip a switch a perform at the same levels.
As a manager of remote teams, I can assure you that not all engineers are adept at working remotely. It’s fairly elitist to declare that engineers are good at remote work while assuming that students are not. You can’t make blanket statements about engineers while simultaneously arguing that students are too diverse for the same treatment.
I never implied all remote engineers would be adept at remote work, but I'd easily argue that engineers, as a group, would be more adept at remote work than most other professions, including a group of college students.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#69The reason there is such a large premium for on-campus education versus online universities is because on-campus education is an experience as much as it is a service. If you're only interested in mastering the content, then online learning may be the place for you. That's why we see so many people pursuing online courses for their master's degrees and when they return to school later in life. They just want the cont…
I agree with your overall point, but one of the issues with online learning is the credential received isn't the same value as an in-person one. There are an increasing number of exceptions like the Georgia Tech online masters, but I'm not aware of a high-end online bachelors degree.
In UK the Open University is highly valued, and only (?) offers remote learning (and has for decades).
Indeed it's recommended to put BA(Open), or whatever, by the uni as it's considered by some more valuable than an attendance based degree. This mirrors the writing of Oxon., for example, for an Oxford degree.
It's surely about perception of employers.
Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is indentured servitude, and expressly forbidden in the United States.
What?? This is literally the definition of a student loan: the bank gives the student some money now, and the student agrees to give them a certain amount of money out of their paycheck for a number of years after graduation. Indentured servitude involves work without pay for a period of time. Quit talking about things you don't understand.
You own the fruits of the person's labor, undischargable in bankruptcy, until a debt is paid off. It is indentured servitude.