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France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

reuters.com

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Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#91

Post by gonational »

fsh wrote: post #85
gonational wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“reproducibility crisis” is a euphemism for “fake science”, which now, by the numbers, accounts for the majority of mainstream establishment science. Prove me wrong.

"Fake science" implies intent to mislead. The reproducibility crisis is usually attributed to selection bias due to only positive results getting published.

You could have five times the accuracy by simply flipping a coin to answer any yes or no question, compared to the level of accuracy in the “reproducibility crisis”. I don’t think this can be explained by “selection bias”, and, if it can, and I do believe that could also qualify the entire industry as “fake science”, if the industry cannot even get close to as accurate as a coin toss.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#92

Post by xapata »

gonational wrote: post #91
fsh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fake science" implies intent to mislead. The reproducibility crisis is usually attributed to selection bias due to only positive results getting published.

You could have five times the accuracy by simply flipping a coin to answer any yes or no question, compared to the level of accuracy in the “reproducibility crisis”. I don’t think this can be explained by “selection bias”, and, if it can, and I do believe that could also qualify the entire industry as “fake science”, if the industry cannot even get close to as accurate as a coin toss.

If you'd read the literature on the reproducibility issue, you'd understand the selection mechanism can easily create the observed phenomenon.

By calling it "fake science" you're touching on the idea of a paradigm shift, that periodically the community changes its beliefs about what enables someone to know something or to be certain about something.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#93

Post by gonational »

xapata wrote: post #92
gonational wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have five times the accuracy by simply flipping a coin to answer any yes or no question, compared to the level of accuracy in the “reproducibility crisis”. I don’t think this can be explained by “selection bias”, and, if it can, and I do believe that could also qualify the entire industry as “fake science”, if the industry cannot even get close to as accurate as a coin toss.

If you'd read the literature on the reproducibility issue, you'd understand the selection mechanism can easily create the observed phenomenon. By calling it "fake science" you're touching on the idea of a paradigm shift, that periodically the community changes its beliefs about what enables someone to know something or to be certain about something.

My thinking is that, if he’s published papers are a large part of the means by which we share scientific knowledge, then, regardless of the underlying mechanism to be blamed (e.g., selection bias), the entire institution has become corrupted.

To illustrate, the literature that you’re describing is presumably in the form of meta-analyses published in Nature. How can we even trust that to be “reproducible” (aka correct)?

I think the correct reaction to this situation is to completely stop trusting scientists and their papers, in general. Not trusting scientists add their papers doesn’t mean disbelieving science in general; it just means the established institutions do not know how to do science correctly, and I believe this has been the case since the beginning of modern science. That means we can learn things by reading between the lines and using some common sense, but we can’t simply rely on institutions to tell us the correct answer to anything whatsoever.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#94

Post by rurban »

DanBC wrote: post #82
rurban wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obvious since end of February that the only usage is in prevention. Give to all risk persons 3 weeks before. That's the Indian advisory: https://www.icmr.gov.in/pdf/covid/techdoc/V5_Revised_advisor...

It's too dangerous to give to high risk people.

If it would too dangerous, it would not be officially used for over 70 years, and be the official recommendation for over a billion people. You are mixing up it up.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#95

Post by xapata »

gonational wrote: post #93
xapata wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd read the literature on the reproducibility issue, you'd understand the selection mechanism can easily create the observed phenomenon. By calling it "fake science" you're touching on the idea of a paradigm shift, that periodically the community changes its beliefs about what enables someone to know something or to be certain about something.

My thinking is that, if he’s published papers are a large part of the means by which we share scientific knowledge, then, regardless of the underlying mechanism to be blamed (e.g., selection bias), the entire institution has become corrupted. To illustrate, the literature that you’re describing is presumably in the form of meta-analyses published in Nature. How can we even trust that to be “reproducible” (aka correct…

> presumably

Incorrect. It's in the form of math. Deductive, not inductive.

> completely stop trusting scientists and their papers ... since the beginning of modern science

You are using a computer right now. You don't trust it? Now you're just trolling me.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#96

Post by [deleted] »

gonational wrote: post #93
xapata wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'd read the literature on the reproducibility issue, you'd understand the selection mechanism can easily create the observed phenomenon. By calling it "fake science" you're touching on the idea of a paradigm shift, that periodically the community changes its beliefs about what enables someone to know something or to be certain about something.

My thinking is that, if he’s published papers are a large part of the means by which we share scientific knowledge, then, regardless of the underlying mechanism to be blamed (e.g., selection bias), the entire institution has become corrupted. To illustrate, the literature that you’re describing is presumably in the form of meta-analyses published in Nature. How can we even trust that to be “reproducible” (aka correct…

[deleted]

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#97

Post by DanBC »

lbeltrame wrote: post #87
DanBC wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point here is the safety of it Yes, which is why all of the studies keep saying that it's too dangerous to use as treatment for covid-19.

Too dangerous (or even ineffective) to use it with patients with severe COVID-19 . Whether it may be the same or not in a prophylaxis regime or for outpatient use (mild to moderate that does not require hospitalization) is yet unknown at this point (most papers that I've read are on hospitalized patients). It may be too toxic, it may not cause a noticeable effect, but currently it is a big question mark.

You'd take the risk for people with severe Covid-19 because it might[1] save their life. You can't justify taking that risk in other people because they're probably not going to be killed by covid-19. Balancing harm from medication against not much harm from covid comes out against the meds.

[1] Except now we know (and we always thought this) that it won't save their life; it'll increase their risk of death.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#98

Post by lenkite »

lbeltrame wrote: post #2

A shame, since the Lancet paper has problems[1][2] in particular related to the baseline of the HCQ-treated vs non-HCQ treated patients. And by admission of the authors themselves, it is not a substitute of a RCT. And this before the results of the Minnesota trial are out. At this point I hope those are negative, so that it does not show that countries are overreacting. [1] https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020…

“India has so far made the right decision on HCQ and that this decision has been based on evidence,” Preeti Sudan, Secretary, Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, was quoted as saying by The Hindu.

The government late last week extended the use of HCQ for paramilitary and police personnel involved in COVID-19 management, besides direct health care providers for positive patients.

Soumya Swaminathan, Chief Scientist at WHO also told The Hindu that WHO is not advising stopping all HCQ trials but has only dropped HCQ from the Solidarity Trial, and that many prophylaxis trials using HCQ are ongoing or about to start.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#99

Post by lenkite »

bonzini wrote: post #19
cm2187 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly in the case of a 1950s drug that has been consumed by millions of people, and which as far as I know was available without prescription until covid. It’s like saying aspirin is dangerous. Sure. At a certain dosage.

Quinine-based drugs are no small thing. They are neurotoxic even at low dosages, for example (the somewhat-related antimalaric drug mefloquine very often causes really bad nightmares, at the very low prophylactic dosage, and it has a long half life so they persist even a few weeks after you've stopped taking it).

We are talking about HCQ. Perhaps its use is strange in the US, but in India its commonly prescribed for malaria (and also lupus, arthritis). My entire extended family (ex-military) has taken HCQ at one point of time or another. No ill-effects for millions of people. Heavy dosages should be avoided of-course.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#100

Post by dpoochieni »

Alex3917 wrote: post #88
dpoochieni wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck you are right, remember just reading that Gilead gave some 250K to the author of one of the studies against HCQ. IF that is not a conflict of interest then what is?

Nice, if you can find the source I'd love to see that. edit: I'm assuming this: https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/35547...

Yeah, not exactly that one but similar. A thing that this one misses is that the author of the study did not do a proper disclosure of the conflict of interest.

The thing is it's pretty evident it works and also why many governments and leaders around the world are taking it as prophylaxes. Anecdotally (doctors in the family), it is being used in private hospitals in my country quite successfully.

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