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France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

reuters.com

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Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#81

Post by marvin »

vixen99 wrote: post #49
ceejayoz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a highly effective and widespread malaria (and RA/lupus) treatment?

The dose for malaria is 200mg. It's the higher doses that are associated with heart arythmia in covid patients. According to a trial reported in https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s129... "No serious cardiac adverse effects were recorded in malaria clinical trials of 35,548 participants who received quinoline and structurally related antimalarials with close follow-up including 18,436 individuals…

Unless I'm mistaken, this paper refers to chloroquine, not hydroxychloroquine.

They are often conflated in the media and colloquial reporting.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#82

Post by DanBC »

rurban wrote: post #78
acallaghan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it had any effect on covid-19, it'd be very obvious by now. There isn't some massive conspiracy here, it just doesn't work. The reason trials have stopped is because France, Italy, Belgium & the UK have seen worse outcomes generally, directly because of it. I don't get the 'it needs to be taken before symptoms!' argument - like we can possibly give a immunosuppressant with non-negligible side-effects (e.g. arrythm…

It's obvious since end of February that the only usage is in prevention. Give to all risk persons 3 weeks before. That's the Indian advisory: https://www.icmr.gov.in/pdf/covid/techdoc/V5_Revised_advisor...

It's too dangerous to give to high risk people.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#83

Post by DanBC »

dpoochieni wrote: post #77
ceejayoz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HCQ has been around for 70 years. Not in an antiviral context, and certainly not for SARS-CoV-2.

So? The point here is the safety of it, plus there's research going back to 2006 about its effectiveness for other Coronaviruses. I mean do whatever you want to do, but there's a reason most people in government are taking it. In my country they privately take it, while publicly not endorsing it to prevent shortages

> The point here is the safety of it

Yes, which is why all of the studies keep saying that it's too dangerous to use as treatment for covid-19.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#84

Post by marvin »

dpoochieni wrote: post #77
ceejayoz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HCQ has been around for 70 years. Not in an antiviral context, and certainly not for SARS-CoV-2.

So? The point here is the safety of it, plus there's research going back to 2006 about its effectiveness for other Coronaviruses. I mean do whatever you want to do, but there's a reason most people in government are taking it. In my country they privately take it, while publicly not endorsing it to prevent shortages

Same stories I've heard. Many doctors prescribing it for prophylactic treatment to friends and family immediately after diagnosis. Some government officials (in France, notably! While at the same time shutting down public use) taking it immediately after diagnosis.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, we'll have to answer soon, but power speaks with a forked tongue in this case. Too many anecdotal observations to be comfortable in the very loud politicization of the science.

The Lancet study and others cannot be accepted a conclusion to the safety & efficacy of early/prophylactic use. Let's wait for and encourage some proper, specific studies.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#85

Post by fsh »

gonational wrote: post #66
OneGuy123 wrote: post #3

"coronavirus is what happens when you put the reproducibility crisis in charge of the planet"

“reproducibility crisis” is a euphemism for “fake science”, which now, by the numbers, accounts for the majority of mainstream establishment science. Prove me wrong.

"Fake science" implies intent to mislead. The reproducibility crisis is usually attributed to selection bias due to only positive results getting published.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#86

Post by marvin »

Yoric wrote: post #56
lbeltrame wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these analyses were done in late-stage COVID-19 patients, when any antiviral won't work (same results with remedisivir, lopinavir/ritonavir/ribavirin), that's why the discussion won't stop. Didier Raoult in his very controversial paper suggested prophylaxis after exposure to the virus. And guess what, no one (save the U of Minnesota trial, AFAICS) has done a RCT on that. EDIT: I think it's a "shame" because a…

> Didier Raoult in his very controversial paper suggested prophylaxis after exposure to the virus. To be fair, Didier Raoult has changed his own claims several times (including dosage, drug mix and he even switched from chloroquine to hydroxychloroquine – afait, these are different molecules). Including after the studies were started. This doesn't mean that he's wrong, but at this stage, there are so many red flags t…

For the purposes we're discussing here, Raoult et al. are front-line clinicians working to save lives under extreme uncertainty, with every decision scrutinized with the benefit of hindsight. You shouldn't hold them to the same standard as pure research scientists.

Research scientists have all the time in the world, clinicians don't. Once again, it's a peacetime army of bureaucrats vs. an unknown enemy that doesn't have the decency to wait for understanding to catch up with reality. Decisions have to be made with an imperfect understanding, in a reality that changes every day.

The truth will seem obvious afterwards, but right now it doesn't. Those not on the front lines should keep to their very important job of improving prospects for the future, and keep the judgement out of it.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#87

Post by lbeltrame »

DanBC wrote: post #83
dpoochieni wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? The point here is the safety of it, plus there's research going back to 2006 about its effectiveness for other Coronaviruses. I mean do whatever you want to do, but there's a reason most people in government are taking it. In my country they privately take it, while publicly not endorsing it to prevent shortages

> The point here is the safety of it Yes, which is why all of the studies keep saying that it's too dangerous to use as treatment for covid-19.

Too dangerous (or even ineffective) to use it with patients with severe COVID-19. Whether it may be the same or not in a prophylaxis regime or for outpatient use (mild to moderate that does not require hospitalization) is yet unknown at this point (most papers that I've read are on hospitalized patients).

It may be too toxic, it may not cause a noticeable effect, but currently it is a big question mark.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#88

Post by Alex3917 »

dpoochieni wrote: post #76
Alex3917 wrote: post #4

Meh. It wouldn't surprise me if these trials are being run by the makers of Remdesivir or some other drug, and they're purposely killing folks to make their treatment look more effective. It's a pretty common tactic in the pharma industry for drug makers to do trials with enormous doses of their competitors products to make them look more dangerous by comparison, and given that this whole thing has turned into a mult…

Fuck you are right, remember just reading that Gilead gave some 250K to the author of one of the studies against HCQ. IF that is not a conflict of interest then what is?

Nice, if you can find the source I'd love to see that.

edit: I'm assuming this: https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/35547...

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#90

Post by reccanti »

dpoochieni wrote: post #73
Luc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better information, I would suggest following the credentialed scientific experts on Twitter. You can get information straight from the very best people in their field. Here, I feel it's a bit of a crap shoot, and half the comments are misinformed & happy to share it.

Haha, damned Poe's law, hope this was sarcasm! During Galileo's time most credentialed experts believed the sun to spin around the earth.

I think it’s always good to be wary of relying uncritically on experts. Nobody’s infallible, but there’s valuable perspective that comes from “person actively involved in the process” vs. “Armchair Hacker News expert”
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