Remote work means anyone can take your job • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#311

Post by Consultant32452 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #237

gregkerzhner wrote: post #132

Real time, remote communication through tools like zoom, slack, and lucidchart (in my humble opinion) has been solved. It might take some getting used to, but in the right environment a group of properly motivated individuals can achieve the same productivity as their peers in a conference room. Asynchronous communication across timezones has not been solved, and I struggle to see how it would be. A lot of collaborat…

> Real time, remote communication through tools like zoom, slack, and lucidchart (in my humble opinion) has been solved. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Remote meetings can be far more frustrating and inefficient because of latency, total lack of turn-taking cues, inability to read emotional expressions of concern or worry on one person or to "read the room", emotional fatigue from lack of cues, and so on. And th…

There's another side to this coin where remote meetings have some benefits. In my experience people tend to schedule fewer pointless meetings and are more likely to get the info they need over slack/email. I don't have to feel like I have to hide my emotional queues, like I can make a "WTF" face any time without fear of reprisal. I can even mute and say really fucked up things out loud to help me get through stupid things that are happening. Many shy people are more comfortable typing what they want to say into a group chat than they are saying it out loud, so in this way text based meetings can be more inclusive.

I suspect after an adjustment period that we'll reach an equilibrium similar to what we had before as far as effectiveness.

There is an interesting social phenomenon going on here which I think is often missed. The old world was designed around the preferences of the most extroverted people. Those people are losing that privilege, and I understand how difficult it must be. Honestly, I'm extremely introverted, and somewhat autistic, enjoy isolation, etc. So if this whole thing has bothered me a little bit, I understand it must feel like torture for someone on the other end of the introvert/extrovert spectrum. Hopefully we'll settle one a better medium that is more amenable to the median person than what we had before.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#312

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

Eh, my boss's boss not that long ago suggested that if I really want to quit, they won't have a problem replacing me. His statement is technically true, but then a new person would have to go through the same training and it would take time before they were competent even if they already had experience in the same domain. Remote does mean the pool of candidates expanded, which sucks for me as that usually means my salary has a potential to go down, but the overall skill set did not change. It is not that cannot be replicated, but it does require training, which most businesses avoid like a plague these days.

edit: But then I am in banking, which is its own little world.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#313

Post by luckylion » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

Communitivity wrote: post #58

beager wrote: post #19

The implication from this litter of thinkpieces on HN is that proximity to a tech hub (SV/NY) is your only competitive advantage as a knowledge worker—your butt is close to their chair. This runs counter to the other prevailing wisdom about SV/NY, which is that those areas are hubs—and essential to the tech industry—because the world's top talent is drawn to it. So which is it?

Both? As someone who is unable to move to California due to family, I've always seen the biggest benefit I am missing to be not applying to jobs close by, but being the proximity to people I can connect with who can help me (and my ideas) grow. It's an old cliche, but true, that if you surround yourself with people smarter/better than yourself then you will likely get better yourself; conversely, if you are the smart…

"The room" has lost most of its meaning, hasn't it? You're no longer limited to working with people who live within driving distance of yourself, you can now meet super smart people from all over the world on lots of websites, talk to them, work with them, learn from them, get inspired by them.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#314

Post by blawson » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #224

danielfoster wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Not to mention it has become much easier for anyone motivated to learn valuable skills online-- now there will be more opportunities to apply them. Someone in the Philippines learning Python on Khan Academy today could very well be competitive for a senior engineering job in 10 years if the career path were possible. I've met countless skilled technical people who could not a get job at XYZ company simply due t…

You forgot to account for domain knowledge. You can be better than me at python, but I know my area and customers. When I'm given a half complete spec I can make good choices for the most part and get done without getting clarification. I can guess what version 2.0 will need well enough that most of the time those features will drop in quickly while major refactoring is required to get them into the better programmer…

Domain knowledge isn't always valued the same by those writing the checks, whereas 50% cheaper is far easier to quantify.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#315

Post by oneplane » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

booleandilemma wrote: post #228

Communitivity wrote: post #38

True, but... Anyone can already take your job, as long as they are willing to relocate, or your company opens a new office near them. It is more important than ever to differentiate yourself. To do that you need to find something to do that you love, and then find (or more often make) a niche in that that that you become one of the top ten people in within your context. By context I mean you don't need to be the best…

...and then find (or more often make) a niche in that that that (sic) you become one of the top ten people in within your context Whatever happened to just getting a normal job and putting in an honest day’s labor? Now we’re expected to become “one of the top ten”... what exactly? How is that supposed to work? What about those of us with families for goodness sake. We can’t all be super Linus Torvalds ninja hackers p…

`an honest day’s labor` never really existed, you were never going to get paid the amount of profit a practically unskilled repetitive job delivers to the person of company you work for.

At the same time, there are plenty of jobs (in the USA) you could do 16 hrs a day and still not make enough money to provide for your basic needs.

I don't think people have to be top ten or something like that to be useful, but being a meat-based robot is hardly compelling for either side anymore. You need to have at least some skill and you need to make sure you keep developing as the world around you also develops. With human expansion the rate of change itself has changed, and not even a luddite would be unaffected by that.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#316

Post by dcolkitt » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #153

antishatter wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was at Intel, they had outsourced graphics driver development to Panang. Within a year they had created a large number of US jobs for folks who had to rebuild the work from Panang and validate/test/fix any new working coming back from Panang. There is a difference between a cheap foreign engineer without formal training and a trained domestic engineer. Anyone who thinks every type of labor can be outsourced to…

> There is a difference between a cheap foreign engineer without formal training and a trained domestic engineer. IMO there's no difference between a trained domestic engineer and a trained foreign engineer. Foreign vs domestic isn't a meaningful difference. However. Existing tech hubs got their cachet for having the best and the brightest, which in turn draws in the best and the brightest. Companies have to pay more…

> IMO there's no difference between a trained domestic engineer and a trained foreign engineer. Foreign vs domestic isn't a meaningful difference.

This isn't supported by the research. American university graduates have much better knowledge of computer science than their Indian, Chinese and Russian counterparts.[1]

[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/116/14/6732

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#317

Post by koheripbal » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #312

Eh, my boss's boss not that long ago suggested that if I really want to quit, they won't have a problem replacing me. His statement is technically true, but then a new person would have to go through the same training and it would take time before they were competent even if they already had experience in the same domain. Remote does mean the pool of candidates expanded, which sucks for me as that usually means my sa…

Most company geographic re-alignments happen through attrition - which averages around 10% per year (+/- 5% by industry).

A company could move a large chunk of its workforce to lower cost locations in only a couple of years without the need for layoffs.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#318

Post by BubRoss » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

temporama1 wrote: post #73

adwn wrote: post #32

The economic incentives to out-source development to India have been there for decades. In the 2000s, "everyone" (i.e., the media) was sure that soon there would be no high-paying programming jobs left in the Western world. Well, how did that pan out?

Yes. Please send details on how we surely implement the microservices.

First, start by making a giant empty class heirarchy in java. Once you have created a dozen classes that inherit from each other, but not yet made any variables or functions, send it right over, your work is done my man.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#319

Post by Justsignedup » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

runawaybottle wrote: post #296

Justsignedup wrote: post #262

I have a strong opinion on this, but it starts at a lower level... A good developer is a developer that makes themselves obsolete. By making themselves obsolete the developer has made themselves invaluable. How can both of those things be true? This is basically because you find that great developers write code and patterns that make it easy for anyone to jump in an understand. Even if complicated. I strive to do thi…

I think the thing you are describing might be seen as a scalar quantity by management. They may just see speed, and not why something is fast. This is unfortunate because if they are operating with scalar conversions then you might misleadingly believe they see the why and how, but in reality are just seeing the what (price or speed or quantity, but not value, impact).

well yes, however good management works to check up on that. it is foolish to assume everything is smooth because it is smooth, you want to know why things are going well just like you want to know why they are not.

at a high level this is really hard to know. but it is important to know who your talent is, otherwise you replace the talent. many in upper management assume engineering is like factory work, which is how you end up with the most terrible software and no path to fix it :(

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#320

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #237

gregkerzhner wrote: post #132

Real time, remote communication through tools like zoom, slack, and lucidchart (in my humble opinion) has been solved. It might take some getting used to, but in the right environment a group of properly motivated individuals can achieve the same productivity as their peers in a conference room. Asynchronous communication across timezones has not been solved, and I struggle to see how it would be. A lot of collaborat…

> Real time, remote communication through tools like zoom, slack, and lucidchart (in my humble opinion) has been solved. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Remote meetings can be far more frustrating and inefficient because of latency, total lack of turn-taking cues, inability to read emotional expressions of concern or worry on one person or to "read the room", emotional fatigue from lack of cues, and so on. And th…

And there is one unspoken piece. Real decisions happen in person, and then may be just repeated via email for CYA purposes. Remote communication may be solved, but the reality of making hard decisions was not.