Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin • Hacker News Board

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#91

Post by SuoDuanDao » Thu, May 28, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

InfiniteRand wrote: post #62

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say if the symptoms reappear when you stop taking a medication, your problem isn't solved so much as the symptoms are being managed. Given that mood disorders can be due to some underlying conflict within the person's psyche, simply alleviating all negative symptoms seems at odds with the goal of getting as many people as possible to self-actualization.

"Given that mood disorders can be due to some underlying conflict" - that is an interesting assumption. It is one of those things that is impossible to prove or disprove. My position is most complex organ systems have biological abnormalities that are prone to dysfunction, such as diabetes, albinoism, genetic predisposition to heart disease and cancers, I'm not sure why the brain would be different in that regard. As…

I did say 'can be'. The soldiers with PTSD whose depression has improved with small numbers of treatments did not simply suffer from a biological abnormality - their brains changed in response to stimulus, which is after all what we'd expect brains to do.

I do think brains should be viewed as different from most organs when we describe medical intervention, they are plastic to a degree other organs are not. If a diabetic could simply 'mutate' their pancreas to function normally with a single intervention, I think most would prefer that to taking insulin all their lives, even if the one intervention was distressing.

Brains actually can change in very dramatic ways. Most are for the worse of course, and we instinctively avoid any change in our mentality, but they are times when it is actually preferable.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#92

Post by kortex » Thu, May 28, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #34

Personally, I think that the effective ban on psychedelic research is a crime against science and mental healthcare - given its immense potential. Sure, there are risks, but we routinely use drugs (as in: medications) of far worse side effects! For some reason, reading Grof felt like reading "Solaris" by Lem - on forsaken, unreal research. I am happy to we are slowly starting research into that. I recommend "Realms o…

> On the other, I am really happy he didn't censor the stories (or himself!) and share both processed and raw experiences

This should be the default reaction when it comes to metaphysical phenomena like ESP, consciousness, and the like. If he had self-censored, that's less of another human's experience shared.

Sure, enough off-beat ideas label you as a kook, but I think if we entitled every human to one or two write-off beliefs, without labelling them as a kook, we'd discover more interesting things about the world. It's so easy to go, "that person believes in X, clearly they lack skepticism" and write off every other stance by them. Instead if we the listener accept these data points as "interesting but potentially erroneous" we can build better mental models than if we reject outright ideas contrary to our worldview.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#93

Post by pharke » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #80

HighlandSpring wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. What's actually happening (either in trials or by underground practictioners) is that the super-malleable/open to self-analysis mental states that can be induced by psychedelics can be a catalyst for significant long-term shifts in perspe…

> This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. Why does it have to include the psychedelic component though (even sub-trip-levels)? Some seem to think that you absolutely must not divide the psychedelic qualities from other qualities, even if you could. As if "you only deserve to en…

I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profound and meaningful experiences. Those are the only other circumstances where I have felt the same as I have with psychedelics, experiencing a deep connection with the awesome scale and complexity of the natural world, falling in love, reading a life changing book, being transported emotionally and mentally by a symphony, getting caught up in the experience of a great movie, the physical rush of pushing yourself to your limits when exercising. We have drugs that seem to be able to produce the same life altering experiences that they can on demand. That's why it seems perverse to many people when it's argued that we should distill just the dregs of chemicals that produce the change without realizing that the actual mental and physical journey, the story that you weave around that experience that includes yourself, your thoughts, your environment and the people around you is probably the most important part. You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#94

Post by elbear » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

shlant wrote: post #55

joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

I wonder if some have a genetic predisposition to bad reactions to psychedelics. My best friend had an LSD reaction similar to yours (increasingly intense hallucinations until falling on the ground and starting to seize). His brother had a bad experience with psilocybin and jumped out a window. I believe a second brother also had a bad experience. Makes me even more concerned when people talk about psychedelics as a…

I believe it's more about your psychology at the time but also your past trauma that determines how you react to it. Experience with meditation should help with any weird moments too.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#95

Post by pharke » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

ketamine__ wrote: post #18

erispoe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not how psychedelics for treatment resistant depression is tested. The most common treatment protocol is a single psychedelics session assisted by 2 therapists (preceded by a few therapy sessions and some follow-ups). Overwhelmingly the evidence point to very significant effects lasting months after the session. This is far from "a never-ending psychedelic trip". If you follow the evidence for the most resear…

> The most common treatment protocol is a single psychedelics session assisted by 2 therapists (preceded by a few therapy sessions and some follow-ups). Ketamine is approved by the FDA for depression and also has a history, albeit shady, of being prescribed off-label at IV clinics. This is far more common than psychotherapy while taking medication and much less expensive too. > If you follow the evidence for the most…

Psychotherapy is seen as prohibitively expensive because of the way it is currently practiced where the patient must see the therapist on an ongoing basis. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's a lot like seeing a personal trainer on a regular basis but it's certainly an expensive way to stay fit. Psychedelic therapy seems to be an option that helps make a much smaller number of sessions "stick". If you only have to do 3 sessions a year then it means the therapists can see a much larger number of patients and the overall cost for each patient could go down.

My opinion is that most people could handle (small) group therapy as well which could further reduce cost and might actually have a number of benefits for those involved.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#96

Post by elbear » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

joeberon wrote: post #60

specialist wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rough. I'm sorry you're struggling with the aftermath. My own story may be relevant to you. FWIW: I was really into zen as a kid. Part of my rebellion against Christianity and leaving my church. Once while meditating, I accidentally had a pretty bad trip. (I can describe the actual trip separately.) I was completely unprepared, didn't even know such a thing was possible. It's kicked my ass ever since. From wha…

Honestly it was similar for me. I'm not sure if this is related to what you are saying but partly for me the suicidal and fearful thoughts were just from considering how incredibly intense the trip was. The emotions and anxiety and just general rawness of nature felt so clear on the trip that it gave me some kind of PTSD and flashbacks that lasted afterwards, to the point where whenever I thought back to the trip I w…

Consider reading this book to deal with your trauma.[1] It talks about how trauma is stored in the body but also offers a few approaches to healing at the end.

[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18693771-the-body-keeps-...

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#97

Post by elbear » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

josephpmay wrote: post #67

specialist wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's rough. I'm sorry you're struggling with the aftermath. My own story may be relevant to you. FWIW: I was really into zen as a kid. Part of my rebellion against Christianity and leaving my church. Once while meditating, I accidentally had a pretty bad trip. (I can describe the actual trip separately.) I was completely unprepared, didn't even know such a thing was possible. It's kicked my ass ever since. From wha…

Wait, you accidentally experienced ego death while meditating as a kid!? That's fascinating If you're willing to share, I would love to hear more. How did you get so deeply into meditation? What was your practice like? What were you doing that got you to such a "bad trip"

If you want to delve more into this topic, I recommend this book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25942786-the-mind-illumi...

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#98

Post by elbear » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #50

joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

That's rough. I'm sorry you're struggling with the aftermath. My own story may be relevant to you. FWIW: I was really into zen as a kid. Part of my rebellion against Christianity and leaving my church. Once while meditating, I accidentally had a pretty bad trip. (I can describe the actual trip separately.) I was completely unprepared, didn't even know such a thing was possible. It's kicked my ass ever since. From wha…

How are you dealing with that experience now? Did it completely put you off meditating?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#99

Post by GordonS » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

joeberon wrote: post #38

kranner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. What does conscientiousness have to do with it? You might need to travel or transit through a country which prohibits carrying them. Now you have to cancel the trip or go without the medicine. > by all means come up with a one-time cure on your own This is not helpful. People have the right to ask questions without being asked to d…

Are there any examples of medication other than ADHD medication that are have such restrictions in certain countries?

Yes. You need to get permission to take a vast number of medications into UAE, including opioids and even common antidepressants.

I went through this process before COVID, with the intention of travelling to Dubai, and they knocked back my request about 10 times for spurious reasons, and were adament that I couldn't enter Dubai with a single pill more than was required for the duration of my time in Dubai. Which of course is completely unrealistic - I'd need some for travelling back, and a small buffer because of flight delays or whatever.

Honestly, travelling with certain medications is a major PITA.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#100

Post by el_nahual » Thu, May 28, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

presiozo wrote: post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

All medications have two kinds of effects: therapeutic effects, and any number of side effects.

The "problem" with compounds that can alter our state of mind is that, by definition, they can be fun/weird/recreational if taken in meaningful doses. And this, of course, scares the government and the pharmaceutical industry. They are not allowed to sell things which can be used for disorder (read: "recreation").

So the pharma industry must select against these compounds. What we're left with is medication where the active, psychoactive effect is so small that it's of the same magnitude as the side effects. This prevents "abuse".

Hence why antidepressants are basically constipation/headache/libido killing pills that kinda maybe change your frame of mind.