Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 192 posts

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#11

Post by dr_dshiv »

joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

Can you share more about the context of the trip? Typically mindset and setting have a big influence. Were you in a safe environment with people you like and trust? Thanks.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#12

Post by joeberon »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #11
joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

Can you share more about the context of the trip? Typically mindset and setting have a big influence. Were you in a safe environment with people you like and trust? Thanks.

Yes, first time was on a canal boat (EDIT: my father-in-law's boat, but he was away) with just my wife. Very safe and secure setting.

Second time was at a very small psytrance festival with my wife and her parents. I trust them completely and they are both very nice, and there were not any scary people about.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#13

Post by joeberon »

pwr22 wrote: post #9
joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

Hope your recovery keeps moving in a positive direction :).

Thank you

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#14

Post by erispoe »

varjag wrote: post #8
themgt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong is psychedelics already work as-is, but due to stigma around "fun" alterations of consciousness possibly being beneficial (along with desire for a patentable compound that can get through FDA regs), most of the focus has been on how we can go about removing the wetness from water while preserving water's essential useful properties. Regardless of how many years go by and self-reporting along with scienti…

It's not "stigma". People treated from clinical depression hope to be able to function in their normal day lives at work and at home, not just be on a never-ending psychedelic trip.

This is not how psychedelics for treatment resistant depression is tested. The most common treatment protocol is a single psychedelics session assisted by 2 therapists (preceded by a few therapy sessions and some follow-ups). Overwhelmingly the evidence point to very significant effects lasting months after the session.

This is far from "a never-ending psychedelic trip". If you follow the evidence for the most researched treatment protocol, this would involve a session every year or half-year.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#15

Post by ketamine__ »

presiozo wrote: post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

I take a prescribed ketamine lozenge every day. I don't experience any psychedelic effects and I'm fine with that.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#16

Post by HighlandSpring »

varjag wrote: post #8
themgt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong is psychedelics already work as-is, but due to stigma around "fun" alterations of consciousness possibly being beneficial (along with desire for a patentable compound that can get through FDA regs), most of the focus has been on how we can go about removing the wetness from water while preserving water's essential useful properties. Regardless of how many years go by and self-reporting along with scienti…

It's not "stigma". People treated from clinical depression hope to be able to function in their normal day lives at work and at home, not just be on a never-ending psychedelic trip.

This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis.

What's actually happening (either in trials or by underground practictioners) is that the super-malleable/open to self-analysis mental states that can be induced by psychedelics can be a catalyst for significant long-term shifts in perspectives and thinking patterns.

An amazing book to give you a cursory understanding of the state of the field is How to Change Your Mind: The New Science of Psychedelics by Michael Pollan. It'll give you a good understanding of what psychedelic research may be able to achieve (and what it's achieved so far).

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#17

Post by dTal »

deathgrips wrote: post #5
presiozo wrote: post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

If you take an anti-depressant pill everyday and it solves your problem, why is that bad? Are you hostile to medication in general?

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects.

A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#18

Post by ketamine__ »

erispoe wrote: post #14
varjag wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "stigma". People treated from clinical depression hope to be able to function in their normal day lives at work and at home, not just be on a never-ending psychedelic trip.

This is not how psychedelics for treatment resistant depression is tested. The most common treatment protocol is a single psychedelics session assisted by 2 therapists (preceded by a few therapy sessions and some follow-ups). Overwhelmingly the evidence point to very significant effects lasting months after the session. This is far from "a never-ending psychedelic trip". If you follow the evidence for the most resear…

> The most common treatment protocol is a single psychedelics session assisted by 2 therapists (preceded by a few therapy sessions and some follow-ups).

Ketamine is approved by the FDA for depression and also has a history, albeit shady, of being prescribed off-label at IV clinics. This is far more common than psychotherapy while taking medication and much less expensive too.

> If you follow the evidence for the most researched treatment protocol, this would involve a session every year or half-year.

In this small survey 60% of patients returned once a month or more for maintenance infusions.

A Survey of the Clinical, Off-Label Use of Ketamine as a Treatment for Psychiatric Disorders https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28669202

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#19

Post by deathgrips »

dTal wrote: post #17
deathgrips wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an anti-depressant pill everyday and it solves your problem, why is that bad? Are you hostile to medication in general?

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

>Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips.

I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness.

>A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior

If you think that big bad pharma companies are keeping people from taking one-time cures for depression, by all means come up with a one-time cure on your own. How do you think one pill can create a permanent structural change in the brain that makes the just-so changes necessary to cure depression forever?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#20

Post by ketamine__ »

themgt wrote: post #7
Etheryte wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you completely, what's wrong with that idea? Currently, anti-depressants are a very hit and miss science, leaving many people further frustrated by therapy that was supposed to help them instead. Anything that can move towards better medicine in the future should be a good thing, no?

What's wrong is psychedelics already work as-is, but due to stigma around "fun" alterations of consciousness possibly being beneficial (along with desire for a patentable compound that can get through FDA regs), most of the focus has been on how we can go about removing the wetness from water while preserving water's essential useful properties. Regardless of how many years go by and self-reporting along with scienti…

I agree with your statement on principle that we should make these drugs widely available when we find efficacy.

I disagree that we shouldn't try to separate psychedelic effects from therapeutic action. There is a body of research on ketamine metabolites. Some of these metabolites may have less psychedelic effects and more anti-depressant action.

I need to take ketamine almost every day. This means there are several hours when my ability to read, think, and remember things is impaired. I hope we are able to discover better drugs.

Post reply on HN