Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin • Hacker News Board

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#31

Post by dTal » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:15 AM UTC

deathgrips wrote: post #19

dTal wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

>Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. >A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior If you think that big bad pharma companies are keeping people from taking one-time…

> How do you think one pill can create a permanent structural change in the brain that makes the just-so changes necessary to cure depression forever?

From the article: "...clinical trials with psychedelic drugs suggest long-term anxiety relief in patients..."

I'm not really sure what the context of your comments is, if you're not aware that this is what the entire thread is about.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#32

Post by joeberon » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:18 AM UTC

PoachedSausage wrote: post #30

joeberon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suffer from diagnosed generalised anxiety disorder (GAD). Weirdly that second trip was actually much more relaxed and enjoyable during the trip than the first alone with just my wife on the canal boat, even if I did almost pass out at the start.

Thinking back, your experience of the seizure thing sounds similar to what a friend of mine experienced, not with LSD but MDMA. It is possibly related to the motion sickness and brain poisoning reflex.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_sickness#Defense_agains...

I did experience motion sickness on LSD so could be related

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#33

Post by skohan » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

presiozo wrote: post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

> they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

I feel like this model is a perfect example of how the incentive structure of the pharmaceutical industry runs counter to pursuit of the best outcomes.

From what I understand anecdotally, psilocybin taken in moderate doses can have beneficial effects on depression and anxiety which last for weeks or months after the dose. This would be an amazing result by all accounts. A treatment which can be done every 6 weeks and still be effective would mitigate a lot of risks, like possible dependency and any toxicity which might be related to prolonged exposure. It seems to me that gets much closer to what we would refer to as a cure than a treatment.

But it seems like most of the clinical research is going into micro-dosing: i.e. how to make this something you would take every day to alleviate symptoms. I just don't understand the benefit of this approach other than the fact that it might be a better business model.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#34

Post by stared » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:37 AM UTC

Personally, I think that the effective ban on psychedelic research is a crime against science and mental healthcare - given its immense potential. Sure, there are risks, but we routinely use drugs (as in: medications) of far worse side effects! For some reason, reading Grof felt like reading "Solaris" by Lem - on forsaken, unreal research. I am happy to we are slowly starting research into that.

I recommend "Realms of the Human Unconscious: Observations from LSD Research" by Stanislav Grof (https://www.amazon.com/Realms-Human-Unconscious-Observations...) - he was one of the pioneers into psychedelic research, while it was easy and possible. For many aspects, it is... humbling. It seems that visions/senses/experiences of cosmic unity, or unspoken dread, or going beyond the physical world is more of a common theme of LSD.

However, I am torn, when it comes to its lack of skepticism. On one hand side, he hints that some aspects of extrasensory perception (e.g. clear visions of spermatozoid entering an ovum, visions of one's ancestors, etc) can be real, without noting some typical biases (e.g. people reporting coincidences only when they happen). Same, he seems to accept a lot of Freudian stuff uncritically. On the other, I am really happy he didn't censor the stories (or himself!) and share both processed and raw experiences. The overall narration is in the tone of a curious researcher knowing that he may get answers he is not looking for.

Overall, I recommend it a lot, keeping in mind that you don't take too religiously his mentions of Freud, Jung, birth matrices and extrasensory perception too literally. But... as a lens/perspective, that (though flawed/simplified) can yet be fertile.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#35

Post by harimau777 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:40 AM UTC

deathgrips wrote: post #19

dTal wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

>Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. >A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior If you think that big bad pharma companies are keeping people from taking one-time…

At least for controlled substances, it is definitely not that simple. Patients can run into situations where pharmacies refuse to tell them if they are able to fill a prescription until it is actually written for them. However, if they are not able to fill it, the doctor is hesitant to write a new prescription for a different pharmacy because it could look like they are writing the patient multiple prescriptions for the same drug.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#36

Post by werber » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:48 AM UTC

ketamine__ wrote: post #15

presiozo wrote: post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

I take a prescribed ketamine lozenge every day. I don't experience any psychedelic effects and I'm fine with that.

I’m very curious about how much you take daily and the effects. I’ve read about the super high dosage therapy, and that made a lot of sense to me. Are you just ever so slightly dissociated at all times?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#37

Post by werber » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:50 AM UTC

new2628 wrote: post #29

varjag wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you hoping for that? Is non-hallucinogenic anti-depressant a bad thing in some way?

Everyone I've known who took such medication have altered their personalities in noticeable (unpleasant) ways. It may be worth it for the person in question, but one should be aware of it.

Maybe I’m too self involved, but I’ve never noticed someone microdosing psychedelics til they have told me

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#38

Post by joeberon » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

kranner wrote: post #21

deathgrips wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. >A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior If you think that big bad pharma companies are keeping people from taking one-time…

> I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. What does conscientiousness have to do with it? You might need to travel or transit through a country which prohibits carrying them. Now you have to cancel the trip or go without the medicine. > by all means come up with a one-time cure on your own This is not helpful. People have the right to ask questions without being asked to d…

Are there any examples of medication other than ADHD medication that are have such restrictions in certain countries?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#39

Post by PoachedSausage » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:56 AM UTC

01100011 wrote: post #28

joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

Similar experience taking LSD(or whatever was on the blotter) when I was a kid. I've done psychedelics since and enjoyed it, but that was my third experience and it was decades before I tried again.

That is what puts me off trying LSD. It seems that unless you live in the Bay area and are friends with certain organic chemists, your chances of getting good quality, real LSD are slim. However, mushrooms are quite easy to grow.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#40

Post by slfnflctd » Thu, May 28, 2020, 12:00 PM UTC

PoachedSausage wrote: post #30

joeberon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suffer from diagnosed generalised anxiety disorder (GAD). Weirdly that second trip was actually much more relaxed and enjoyable during the trip than the first alone with just my wife on the canal boat, even if I did almost pass out at the start.

Thinking back, your experience of the seizure thing sounds similar to what a friend of mine experienced, not with LSD but MDMA. It is possibly related to the motion sickness and brain poisoning reflex.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_sickness#Defense_agains...

This is what it made me think of as well. My first experience with MDMA started out in the grips of anxiety, trembling and feeling multiple uncomfortable symptoms, afraid I had taken too much. I don't think I was able to even stand or walk for several long minutes.

I went on to have a wonderful & memorable experience, feeling closeness & positivity with every human interaction for hours. The worst part after I got over the initial freakout was coming back down. I've heard people talk about such early-stage freakouts happening on other psychedelics, too, but I don't have much experience there.