Live data from Hacker News

Why is AI so useless for business?

mebassett.info

91–100 of 391 posts

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#91
post #75

I’ve been working in the “real world business processes that companies are trying to AI-ify” realm for quite a while now. Pharma, cyber security, oil and gas production, etc. This article doesn’t mention a really, really straightforward factor for why AI hasn’t invaded these domains despite billions of dollars being dumped into them. An automated process only has to be wrong once to compel human operators to double o…

Why dump billions of dollars then? Nowhere else to spend it? Effective marketing?[1] Is no one asking this question? "... and critically: there's no one to hold responsible for getting it wrong." Could this be part of "AI"'s appeal? A dream of absolving businesses and individuals from accountability.[2] 1. "What's more, artificial research teams lack an awareness of the specific business processes and tasks that coul…

You don't need to solve every problem to make AI worth the investment, just a large enough handful of billion-dollar problems.

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#92
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, N26, a major online bank in Europe is famous for some of its customers getting their accounts blocked every time they tweak their ML model and yet is doing great financially dispite the shitstorm it generates each time. It's not like Google blocking your email or YouTube account, we're taking about your friggin bank account here. I don't know how they're still in business and growing with such a process in place…

Not working directly in the field, but i believe ML for fraud detection is very common nowadays..

Yeah but usually the bank just buys package solution with some customization for accessing the data & reporting, so they don't have to keep up the army of very narrowly specialized folks catching up with ever changing laws etc.

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#94
post #22

A better question would be why AI works great for some business (e.g. Netflix, AirBnB, Uber, Waze, Amazon) yet fails miserably for other (JC Penney, Sears). In my view, the older companies are trying to strap on AI on top of a traditional dataset, which never collected any useful signals. The new companies designed their entire business concepts around data, and collected what's needed from the get-go. Sears may have…

> AI works great for some business (e.g. Netflix, AirBnB, Uber, Waze, Amazon)

Does it actually? Specifically, what has AI done for Uber?

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#95
This is clickbait (1) to promote his startup, Proda.

ML is used in business workflows all the time - to date, I have built several solutions that are being used for 53 clients, internal and external.

Here is what makes B2B ML hard: People have to trust it.

This isn't some movie-recommendation engine, which spams you with more bank heist movies after you watch one. B2C ML systems can get it wrong, and customers are generally forgiving, because it's a low stakes game. B2B applications are generally higher-stakes, because they impact business workflows, and if someone has decided to automate it, it's probably a high-volume, critical workflow. It has to be extremely accurate, and demonstrably better than the equivalent human system.

The problem has to be well-defined enough that an ML system can act with high-accuracy, but not well-defined enough that a rule-system could replace it. Don't use ML if a rule-system will do a better job. (For those scenarios, you can still put an ML anomaly-detection system to make sure the rule-system is still valid, and to guard against data input changes.) As just mentioned, the problem also has to be important enough and high-volume enough to warrant an ML solution. The percentage of problems that fulfill these criteria is not very large.

Now to actual ML development and deployment - the model is the tip of the iceberg. The rest of the iceberg is data acquisition, feature selection, data/feature versioning, automated training, CI/CD, model performance monitoring, et cetera. If ML is being developed inside a software development organization, this isn't a problem, most people will understand this. If it is being developed within an embedded BI team inside a business unit - they will generally not have support/runway needed to build the full system. The ML model might make it to production, but it will probably run naked, be brittle, and hard to retrain. A dramatic failure with business impact is just a matter of time.

There are a lot of low-code, no-code ML solutions that have been developed, or are being developed, and some of the supporting infrastructure as well, but, at the risk of sounding parochial/protectionist, you need a rock-solid, end-to-end, integrated, data management system that is fully understood by whomever needs to pick up the phone at 2AM. It's the interfaces that are hard, and chaining together a bunch of third-party black-box systems just means more interfaces and behavior you don't control. Choose and use these systems wisely.

So yeah, B2B ML is hard. But it's generally not due to lack of data, and transfer learning is generally not necessary. Understanding business processes is important, I agree, but that's comparatively easy. It's what consultants have been doing for decades. The hard part is choosing a problem where ML can add value, and then executing on it with enough integrity that people will actually trust it.

(1) Ok, clickbait might be harsh. But it is self-promotion, and the article itself is a collection of generic banalities. I feel it falls on the wrong side of the line.

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#96

> why can't it read a PDF document and transform it into a machine-readable format? > why can't I get a computer to translate my colleague's financial spreadsheet into the format my SAP software wants? Because you probably expect it to be 100% or maybe 99.999% accurate, and we can't do that. Imagine "AI" translating someones financial spreadsheet into a different format and dropping a zero somewhere. Oops.. but your…

[deleted]

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#97

I’ve been working in the “real world business processes that companies are trying to AI-ify” realm for quite a while now. Pharma, cyber security, oil and gas production, etc. This article doesn’t mention a really, really straightforward factor for why AI hasn’t invaded these domains despite billions of dollars being dumped into them. An automated process only has to be wrong once to compel human operators to double o…

> 99% isn’t good enough for truly critical applications, especially when you don’t know for sure that it’s actually 99%; there’s no way to detect which 1% might be wrong; there’s no real path to 100%; and critically: there’s no one to hold responsible for getting it wrong.

AI also exposes the possibility of systemic error where humans would be stochastic.

A human might only identify the right number of rentable units from a spreadsheet (to pick an example from this article) 97% of the time when an AI might do it 99% of the time, but even the same human will have a different 3% error on each day. The consequences of failure are more limited and more dilute.

On the other hand, the AI may work perfectly right up until a holding company redesigns their data tables for the 100th time, whereupon it misreads every financial report with much more concentrated ill effect.

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#98
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pretty much agree with all of your points, but I also think there may be a more fundamental issue at play here. ML doesn't actually "understand" things - it can do very sophisticated and accurate pattern matching without actually "knowing" the logic of the patterns it's matching. This in turn means that it may fail catastrophically when faced with adversarial examples or with examples that are drawn from a differen…

How is that different from a typical human given a routine boring role? Specifically in regards to adversarial input, humans are often the weakest link in terms of process security.

I wasn't thinking that there are no roles that can be automated, rather that there are some that can't be.

> Specifically in regards to adversarial input, humans are often the weakest link in terms of process security

I have yet to encounter a (healthy) person who looks at a photo of static and mistakes it for a cat.

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#99
post #79

I'm going to go against the flow of most comment here and say that it's not always business misunderstanding AI. Bad labeled data and unclear goals/expectations sure, but the latter one should be identifiable by a good ML/Data scientist, if you have any insight to what you can actually deliver. But most ML/Data Science people have no proper understanding of AI/ML, and when just traditional "coding" can solve the prob…

I would add "AI" produces results that are hard to understand and work with. When you do "traditional coding" you are getting results that are easier to work with because you understand where they came form. Then it is easier to modify the model and understand the outcome. Your background is robotics. As a robotics example, training AI model to keep bipedal robot upright might be possible but having proper control mo…

I mean, part of the problem is that no one can seem to agree about what "AI" even is anymore; you described a control theory model that "calculate[s] the envelope" which I'm interpreting to mean some sort of confidence interval/posterior, but to me that's exactly what you should be doing whenever possible in an "AI" model, as in, control theory (it sounds like with Gaussian Processes or something) is the right "AI" approach to that problem.

To me, linear/logistic regression is AI, as are neural nets, as are pretty much any statistical model. These days "AI" seems to be roughly interpreted as "whatever a DS person deems as a solution to our business problem" at least in my very limited experience. It's all a bit silly since AI has come to mean so many different things that may not fit the traditional definition of AI from e.g. the 90's, but as long as people aren't pidgeon-holeing themselves into particular methods, I'm happy to go along with slapping an "AI" label on pretty much anything.

Re: Why is AI so useless for business?

#100
post #79

I'm going to go against the flow of most comment here and say that it's not always business misunderstanding AI. Bad labeled data and unclear goals/expectations sure, but the latter one should be identifiable by a good ML/Data scientist, if you have any insight to what you can actually deliver. But most ML/Data Science people have no proper understanding of AI/ML, and when just traditional "coding" can solve the prob…

I would add "AI" produces results that are hard to understand and work with. When you do "traditional coding" you are getting results that are easier to work with because you understand where they came form. Then it is easier to modify the model and understand the outcome. Your background is robotics. As a robotics example, training AI model to keep bipedal robot upright might be possible but having proper control mo…

>I would add "AI" produces results that are hard to understand and work with.

Sorry but no, this rhetoric is often used as an easy escape of responsibility but I don't buy it. Sure, if you're talking about the neural nets used in Google translate or YouTube recommendation system, or any big tech company domain of problem that is based on vast amount of data with extreme size of state space and variability - fine.

But we are not talking about interpretability of the result but the reliability of it, and in robotics domain you rarely have to tackle that size of state space, but rather a highly noisy one.

Let's take your example of low level control of bipedal robot. At whatever stage of control/manipulation you're talking about, you always have to consider that the input will have some noise, and how to handle it. This is the reliability; you know how to(or how much) of the input noise you can handle, and how much you will leave (or amplify) to the rest of the system. Based on this you also know the limit of the system, so you can also get an indication of failure. You can make AI/Neural Network to consider the noise and also give an indication of failure, but you have to think about that from the data gathering step! Most control algorithms have this: "what input noise can I handle" question answered; The same requirement should be set to the data.

I assume you thought about Reinforcement Learning of sorts when you thought about control, but what most people don't realize is that those algorithms works only because you can use high precision sensor that reduce these noise level (combined with sensor fusion) to negligible level. But now you're relying on high precision, extremely expensive sensors. They almost always fail when you get out of the lab and have to suddenly consider cost. (and at this stage traditional control algorithm creeps back)

Let's take a real example. On my original comment I wrote "work in lab at 1pm" and I weren't sarcastic. Apparently not only did the AI solution (in Computer Vision) I were given only work in the lab, but at the exact lightning condition under high noon at the lab, with all the ceiling lights on all the time. We are now not talking about interpretability of the AI, but the reliability; This is easy to identify beforehand. You can also mitigate this (the lightning noise) by including it in the model (data). This should have been glaringly obvious if the person actually knew his toolset rather than just retraining a existing model using tensorflow magic.

Post reply on HN