Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#181

Post by rb808 » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:03 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #130

antr wrote: post #20

Thought: - Companies that now realised that remote schemes works for them, will push for that scheme to remain, with the aim of reducing their fixed costs (office rent, utilities, insurance, etc). - This eliminates a big chunk of fixed costs... as most are shifted to the employees. - If authorities/employees start demanding that part of those costs are covered by the company, companies will push to get avoid work-fro…

> I'm sure that there are other unintended consequences, such as higher rents, but who knows. That's not that easy. While Switzerland doesn't do rent control per se and there can be regional differences depending on scarcity of real estate for rent a landlord is rather restricted in raising rent once a contract is signed. The only reasons why a rent can be raised are: - Additional investments into an apartment, but t…

> Else than that rents can't just be raised.

Can you clarify that? To be clear its normal not to change rents during the contracted period. When contract expires what are the rules for permissable rent increases for the next contract?

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#182

Post by CaptainZapp » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #181

CaptainZapp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure that there are other unintended consequences, such as higher rents, but who knows. That's not that easy. While Switzerland doesn't do rent control per se and there can be regional differences depending on scarcity of real estate for rent a landlord is rather restricted in raising rent once a contract is signed. The only reasons why a rent can be raised are: - Additional investments into an apartment, but t…

> Else than that rents can't just be raised. Can you clarify that? To be clear its normal not to change rents during the contracted period. When contract expires what are the rules for permissable rent increases for the next contract?

Rental contracts are usually not expiring (there are exceptions).

Each party can terminate the contract usually twice a year with a three month notice period.

Termination must follow certain formality and it's slightly lopside to the renters advantage in that a renter can challenge a termination, while the landlord can't.

Rent increases after a contract is terminated are possible within reason and within fair market value of the rent.

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#183

Post by missedthecue » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

cactus2093 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow I had thought the cost of living was high in Switzerland but I guess when you’re used to the Bay Area everything else seems cheap. In SF you’d pay like $5000 for that 2bd unless you go out pretty to the more remote, harder to commute from neighborhoods. In any case, $154 is still not that significant, definitely not enough on its own to let you afford an extra bedroom to turn into an office, for instance.

A two bedroom 80 m^2 is Also equivalent to a 861 sqf apartment, which is kind of small by American standards. For $5k in the city, I would think you could at least get 1200 sqf or better. Also, it is hard to rent in Switzerland...like...the prices aren’t your biggest problem in renting a place, finding a place to rent at all and getting accepted by the real estate company is a PITA and you’ll often wish you could jus…

That's rent control for you. Same case in Stockholm

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#184

Post by occamrazor » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

MrGilbert wrote: post #124

xenonite wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what do you find sketchy about it? a) Of course, a decision from 2019 is not related to the coronavirus lockdown b) the "different language" is German, which is one of the official languages in Switzerland. If you want more sources, albeit also in German: https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/arbeitgeber-muessen-einen-teil-de... c) the public court decision has also been linked: http://relevancy.bger.ch/php/aza/http/index…

a) The linked article never states that it is based on an article which is based from a court decision from 2019 - it reads and presents itself as if it applies to the current pandemic "every-body-works-from-home"-situation, where I could imagine a judge would rule different. b) Not my point. Translating from one language to another is prone to loose some information. Whoever did the translation, might have lost some…

a) It refers to a court decision, and everybody knows that it cannot be related to the current situation because court cases take (much) more than two months.

b) Swissinfo is a well-regarded, state-founded website that provides news in several languages. Their translation is probably very good. Tages Anzeiger has a free trial if you want to read the German original.

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#185

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #183

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A two bedroom 80 m^2 is Also equivalent to a 861 sqf apartment, which is kind of small by American standards. For $5k in the city, I would think you could at least get 1200 sqf or better. Also, it is hard to rent in Switzerland...like...the prices aren’t your biggest problem in renting a place, finding a place to rent at all and getting accepted by the real estate company is a PITA and you’ll often wish you could jus…

That's rent control for you. Same case in Stockholm

Yes, there is some of that. One wonders if they didn’t have price caps if prices would rise to SF-levels really quickly.

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#186

Post by ck425 » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #109

sdfx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A trend that started already in a lot of companies a couple of years ago and will only be accelerated by Covid. Many places do overbook desks in offices right now and have flex-tables without fixed assigned workers. Seems fair to think about compensating employees for the costs that are being pushed to their side.

What cost? If anything the employee now saves time and money from the commute alone.

That not true for everyone. I live a 1.6 mile walk/run to work so my commute is 35 min a day and free.

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#187

Post by ghaff » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #174

hnra wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating an office at home? For a lot of people, making your home a viable working space is very expensive. It may even require the worker to purchase a home or apartment with an extra room.

Imagine if you will: a condo building that's designed as a mixed residential/commercial space, where there are apartment units, and office units that are free-to-use for anyone with an apartment there. And the office units are pre-furnished.

Now you're essentially paying for a co-working space (whether you use it or not or whether there's always a space available) through some combination of higher unit prices and condo fees.

Wouldn't it make more sense for those who need/want a work area outside their apartment to get a co-working space?

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#188

Post by dahfizz » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #173

CaptainZapp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure that there are other unintended consequences, such as higher rents, but who knows. That's not that easy. While Switzerland doesn't do rent control per se and there can be regional differences depending on scarcity of real estate for rent a landlord is rather restricted in raising rent once a contract is signed. The only reasons why a rent can be raised are: - Additional investments into an apartment, but t…

> My ethical compass would feel it's wrong to squeeze additional benefits from an arrangement I have seen others thinking like that, and then become very sore when they are fired in an economic downturn. They feel that "it is not fair" because they did as much as they could for their company, the company did not care. Is that different in Switzerland? Has it a similar culture to Japan where firing an employee is the…

There is a (not so fine) line between looking after yourself and being a greedy jerk.

I find that a little bit of grace goes a long way. Ask for a raise when you deserve it, absolutely. But if you ruthlessly try to extract every last penny from your employer, they will do the same to you.

Have you ever browsed HN at work? Have you ever left just a few minutes before 5?

I don't want my workplace to be a battleground over pennies. Treat your employer with some grace and they will do the same.

Unless, of course, your employer is already a greedy asshole. Then you should change employers.

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#189

Post by code_duck » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

papeda wrote: post #116

manigandham wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What cost? If anything the employee now saves time and money from the commute alone.

I'd guess there are plenty of people in high-rent areas who'd need larger and more expensive living quarters to work from home long-term.

If they previously chose those areas for convenient location in regards their work, now they're free to move anywhere they'd like.

Re: Swiss companies must pay share of rent for employees working from home

#190

Post by ghaff » Mon, May 25, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

ck425 wrote: post #186

manigandham wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What cost? If anything the employee now saves time and money from the commute alone.

That not true for everyone. I live a 1.6 mile walk/run to work so my commute is 35 min a day and free.

A lot of people outside of urban centers have spare space and the money/time cost of their usual commute adds up. But, absolutely, there are many people in cities who have low commuting costs and their apartment is basically somewhere to sleep. I can't imagine working remote like that is sustainable long-term. Many will have to move into a larger place or rent a co-working space.