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Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

theregister.co.uk

131–140 of 157 posts

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#131
post #119
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hysterics don't turn green until they're actually exposed to toxic waste. I think this is plain old hysteria; many environmentalists are all about nuclear power because the alternatives are coal, oil, or hunter/gatherer at 1/1000th the world's current population.

The alternative is to save energy. There is still much to gain with advanced technology. For example we drive all day with vehicels that have an overall efficiency factor of 3%. Huge waste is going on. It's a shame.

If there were ways to save large amounts while maintaining economic output, people would be doing them and making massive amounts of money from the savings.

There are ways to achieve a mean world GDP, or at least a standard of living similar to ours at a much lower rate of single-use resource consumption, but we're at a local optima. Civilization is a greedy search algorithm.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"considering one's yearly dose limit is 1 mSv total." In Ramsar, Iran the background radition is around 200 mSv/Y (compared to a worldwide average of 2.4 mSv/Y) and _according to wikipedia_ this "high level of radiation does not seem to have caused ill effects on the residents of the area". Call me confused. Is the 1 mSv/Y total one of those made-up safety guidelines?

The physics and physiology of radiation exposure seem to be quite complicated. I can't really answer your question, I'm very far from qualified to do so, but again _according to Wikipedia_ the short term effect of 0.2 Sv per day, let alone a year, seems to fall into the "no effect" category[1]. And according to this[2] post on Boingboing, the long term effect may not be as bad as one might think either. [1] http://en…

The effects listed in the Wikipedia article refer to acute radioation poisoning, i.e. what happens when radiation is so intense that it directly kills so many of your cells that your body can't cope.

Even if at 0.2 Sv/d none of that happens, you still have a very actual, massively increased risk of cancer and genetic defects in future children. To declare "no health issues", you most definitely want to stay several orders of magnitude below that

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#133
post #54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking of jumping to conclusions: Germany just started to shut down 7 nuclear power plants because of Fukushima... 100% pure green hysteria. ~10.000 died because of the tsunami. Who died because of Fukushima? None so far.

Well there is cheap living space available around Fukushima right now. Would you care to move there?

I already live not too far from a nuclear power plant, but I'd rather not live in a major earthquake zone.

I mean, this earthquake has already killed thousands (and there will be more earthquakes in the futures). The power plant? I think a few have died from the hydrogen explosions, but none from radiation poisoning.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there was exposure, certainly those 4000 children recieved high enough levels. However this is a far cry of hundreds of thousands of dangerous exposures, massive increases of cancer rates and birth defects that are still happening that most people think of. I myself thought just that until recently after investigating it.

I was studying in Russia when Chernobyl occurred, and I dated a woman from northern Ukraine who was a teenager at the time of the accident. I saw the results of the accident firsthand - basically everyone under the age of 10 was affected - hair loss, skin rashes and nausea in the immediate years after, cancer and early death later. But even so it isn't fair to judge the safety of nuclear power by Chernobyl. Chernobyl…

The capitalist system quite often also becomes incredibly incompetent and has its technical decisions made by thugs. Tepco, the company that runs the Fukushima plant, has a long history of corruption, faked security reports and blatant incompetence.

What makes nuclear power unsafe is human error more than technical failure. That's the aspect the naive technocrats (like the guy who wrote this article) always ignore.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose we can all have differing opinions on what an acceptable level of risk is, but leaking radiation, fuel storage ponds on fire, and a situation volatile enough to warrant a 30km exclusion zone says to me that the plant clearly was not designed to handle this kind of situation. If the problem is the lack of power, then so be it - even more of a preventable problem that wasn't properly assured against. I'm hope…

Is dumping millions of barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico an acceptable level of risk for you? I don't see you saying we should stop drilling for oil.

You can't fault him for not saying we should stop drilling for oil - this discussion is not about oil.

But since you brought it up, we should stop drilling for oil, particularly sea bed drilling, while operating with lax regulatory bodies and marginal penalties for non-compliance.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#136
post #44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a documentary about Chernobyl yesterday ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCXb1Nhd1o ) an although it's obviously a little sensationalist/emotional I have a really hard time having any respect for people claiming it didn't have that much impact. Fukushima is very different but I agree with others that we should wait at least a couple of weeks till we make any conclusions Speaking of jumping to conclusions:…

> Speaking of jumping to conclusions: Germany just started to shut down 7 nuclear power plants because of Fukushima... 100% pure green hysteria. ~10.000 died because of the tsunami. Who died because of Fukushima? None so far.

The situation in Germany is rather special in that the policy decision being made is to implement the first steps of a decade-old plan for phasing out nuclear reactors, which a previous (social democrat) administration had made and the current (conservative) one had cancelled – a very unpopular decision even before last Friday.

So the measures being taken are in fact neither hasty nor unplanned.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#137
post #44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a documentary about Chernobyl yesterday ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCXb1Nhd1o ) an although it's obviously a little sensationalist/emotional I have a really hard time having any respect for people claiming it didn't have that much impact. Fukushima is very different but I agree with others that we should wait at least a couple of weeks till we make any conclusions Speaking of jumping to conclusions:…

> Speaking of jumping to conclusions: Germany just started to shut down 7 nuclear power plants because of Fukushima... 100% pure green hysteria. ~10.000 died because of the tsunami. Who died because of Fukushima? None so far.

The situation in Germany is rather special in that the policy decision being made is to implement the first steps of a decade-old plan for phasing out nuclear reactors, which a previous (social democrat) administration had made and the current (conservative) one had cancelled – a very unpopular decision even before last Friday.

So the measures being taken are in fact neither hasty nor unplanned.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#138
post #108
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sadly within a few weeks, armies of anti-nuclear campainers, writers, and politicians will have jumped on this and pumped it so through the roof that, even if everything in this article is correct most people won't listen. NYT, Guardian, Spiegel, Mother Jones, The Atlantic (every online publication there is), every news TV channel (except Al Jazeera). Greenpeace are all over the place with their campaigning. The hys…

"If people don't fight the campaign to stop nuclear energy, the factoids are going to dominate the discourse in many years to come." I don't think it's fair to characterize the opposition's arguments so flippantly (as "factoids"). I'm far from an opponent of nuclear energy, but there are a lot of damned good reasons to be contemplative about a system where one bad day can injure thousands of people, and simultaneousl…

That was a pretty bad day, right? However, no armageddon has occurred.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a quick point of order: study after study on Chernobyl found major exposure by just about everyone . It was serious business. This is where, without any containment vessel at all, the fuel caught fire and the radioactive ash spread all over the place. But you are right about Three-Mile Island.

But you are right about Three-Mile Island. He's not right about TMI, either. The results of TMI are debated to this day with some studies claiming minimal or no adverse health affects and some studies claiming significant adverse health affects.

Just because someone disagrees, an issue is not necessarily controversial. You have to take the substantial merit of the arguments into account.

Re: Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now

#140
This article dramatically misses the point! Uranium is peaking. Oil has already peaked. If we intend to use reprocessing to conserve uranium, then we need to come up with new reactor designs that require less fossil fuel energy and less money to build.

The problem isn't that reactors are inherently unsafe, but that building new reactors without dramatically improving the underlying designs is inherently inefficient. This means that nuclear energy, when all insurance and other costs are included, does not present ANY savings over any other form of newly-built power plant.

The main cost argument in favor of nuclear power is that existing thirty-year old plants cost so little per year. This is an obvious diversionary trick. We paid off the bonds ages ago. My house is also the cheapest on the street if you don't include the mortgage.

The main argument in favor of nuclear power is that it provides reliable baseload energy, which must only be shut down once every fourteen months or so for refueling. This disaster is the proof that nuclear baseload energy is only as reliable as its safety investments and contigency planning. Fukushima is not the first plant to go silent forever.

The Fukushima disaster reminds me of what really happened to our I-35W bridge locally. Over thirty years ago, someone built bridge with gussets too thin. Over a decade ago, our state replaced its government bridge inspectors with a for-profit firm that promised it would "save money" through efficiency savings on labor. Seven years before the disaster, HNTB Corp. of Kansas City performed a bridge analysis to try to win the contract from URS. They found the under-sized gussets and demonstrated how the Minnesota Department of Transportation could use "supplemental plates" and a new "oversize gusset" to strengthen the bridge. HNTB never got the contract and improvements were never made. Later, URS had the option to either re-inspect the bridge or to brace the bridge as HNTB had suggested. They chose to re-inspect.

During court filings in the victims lawsuit, a URS bridge contractor stated in an internal e-mail that they chose not to determine the stresses on all the components in the bridge because "it was too much work."

The moral of the story is that saving money on engineering does not always save money. I could cite numerous similar examples, like the infamous Boeing 787 project that I was involved in as a Cray Inc. contractor.

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