Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well Xilinx has the Zynq-7000 SoC[1], featuring an ARM Cortex-A9 CPU along with a potentially quite large FPGA. Not exactly cheap though, at least in small quantities[2] [1]: https://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/soc/zynq-700... [2]: https://www.digikey.com/products/en/integrated-circuits-ics/...
Intel has the Cyclone V range. Also, I've never done it myself but I've read that digikey prices are almost never the actual price for FPGAs even in relatively small quantities (haggling with avnet).
VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
51–60 of 79 posts
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#52I'm disappointed today's general purpose CPU's and microcontrollers don't come with some integrated FPGA space, similar to how you have SRAM and other peripherals. Intel talked about it a few years back [1] but I'm not sure anything materialized. The closest I've seen in popular chips is a few gates worth of programmable logic. Are there any hidden gems I've missed out on? [1] https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/24/…
In other words, don't get some FPGA with your micro. Get a micro with your FPGA. The later exists.
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#53I'm disappointed today's general purpose CPU's and microcontrollers don't come with some integrated FPGA space, similar to how you have SRAM and other peripherals. Intel talked about it a few years back [1] but I'm not sure anything materialized. The closest I've seen in popular chips is a few gates worth of programmable logic. Are there any hidden gems I've missed out on? [1] https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/24/…
With the transition of compute from performance focussed to performance per watt focussed (due to cooling usually being the limiting factor), the niche for the FPGA has almost vanished. There are very very very few compute tasks where an FPGA solves a problem with better performance per watt than both a CPU and a GPU. I would bet that emulating a RISC-V program on x64 is far more power efficient than running a RISC-V…
While Xilinx posts record quarterly profits and there are more FPGAs moved than ever before.
But go on. Enlighten us...
"There are very very very few compute tasks where an FPGA solves a problem with better performance per watt than both a CPU and a GPU."
Oh right. Let me just slap those into my satellite, radio system, aircraft control system, military system, enmbedded system... How could I have not seen the light?
"I would bet that emulating a RISC-V program on x64 is far more power efficient than running a RISC-V core on an FPGA for example." Hahahahahahaha. What size bet, chief? I need a new pair of shoes.
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#54I'm disappointed today's general purpose CPU's and microcontrollers don't come with some integrated FPGA space, similar to how you have SRAM and other peripherals. Intel talked about it a few years back [1] but I'm not sure anything materialized. The closest I've seen in popular chips is a few gates worth of programmable logic. Are there any hidden gems I've missed out on? [1] https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/24/…
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#55I'm disappointed today's general purpose CPU's and microcontrollers don't come with some integrated FPGA space, similar to how you have SRAM and other peripherals. Intel talked about it a few years back [1] but I'm not sure anything materialized. The closest I've seen in popular chips is a few gates worth of programmable logic. Are there any hidden gems I've missed out on? [1] https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/24/…
With the transition of compute from performance focussed to performance per watt focussed (due to cooling usually being the limiting factor), the niche for the FPGA has almost vanished. There are very very very few compute tasks where an FPGA solves a problem with better performance per watt than both a CPU and a GPU. I would bet that emulating a RISC-V program on x64 is far more power efficient than running a RISC-V…
And since you mentioned perf-per-dollar -- ignoring soft CPUs, any deeply pipelined algorithm is very likely going to destroy price-comparable CPUs in terms of throughput e.g. you can do 16-to-32 bytes per cycle of AES on a dinky FPGA from 10 years ago for a few dollars, and at 50MHz you're doing 1.6GB/s, and people have been achieving this, or multiple times this, for 15+ years. Things like TDP are not a measure of "overall system design efficiency", it's a measure of thermal capacity, thermal budgets, and nothing more. (BTW, the only general purpose CPU that comes close to this number directly for AES is, like, Ice Lake, since VAESNI can turn out 16 bytes per cycle or whatever IIRC, but now you're well back into "multiple watts" territory on a multi-GHz CPU.) The reason people still use CPUs for these tasks isn't because they don't want better performance: it's because software has better agility and is easier to acquire and modify and distribute. You can have systems that are dozens of times more efficient than commodity ones for a wide variety of tasks, they will just be a pain in the ass to use, program, acquire, and build. You can figure out most of this with basic napkin math.
Stop thinking so much about individual components, and start thinking about global system design -- because the entire system has its own performance criteria that may vary drastically compared to an individual component within it.
> There are very very very few compute tasks where an FPGA solves a problem with better performance per watt than both a CPU and a GPU.
This is like stating "There are very few tasks where a car would do as well as a snowmobile." They aren't comparable for purpose. Hacker News is pop-culture-y so everyone thinks "the only thing that matters is a cool CPU running in a rack with a 7nm TSMC process that can run my Go application on Kubernetes that will disrupt The Market of Smart Toilets" or whatever they do day to day, and extrapolate from there. But I'd guess the vast majority (like, 85% or more) of FPGA field has literally nothing to do with this. A huge amount of work basically revolves around "just" interfacing with analog devices at pico/nanosecond level resolutions...
The quest for best perf-per-watt is one largely driven by datacenters and personal consumer electronics, which have both high volume and high yield, and where the largest challenges revolve around power, cooling, etc. Furthermore these systems run workloads that are largely general purpose "state machines" that use some memory and some CPU and some disk, etc, and need to try and hit a balance among all of these. There is a large amount of resource arbitrage going on. "A rising tide lifts all boats" in this case. But little of that applies in this field; people use older nodes and the same chips for 5-10+ years (or longer) straight because they need to deliver latency-sensitive solutions, customized hardware at low volume, "hardware glue" for various analog systems, highly specialized algorithmic solutions for the lowest total BOM cost, etc. They aren't aiming to replace the systems created by digital Silicon Valley software programmers.
There is a push to move FPGAs into the datacenter (see: Xilinx and their exploding revenue) but it's unclear if they will settle into specific niches or be used as supplementary devices or whatnot.
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#56I really like the idea of RISC-V and I'm willing to make the investment in software (and in fact have done so with QEMU), I just can't get any real hardware (for a non-silly price).
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#57I'm disappointed today's general purpose CPU's and microcontrollers don't come with some integrated FPGA space, similar to how you have SRAM and other peripherals. Intel talked about it a few years back [1] but I'm not sure anything materialized. The closest I've seen in popular chips is a few gates worth of programmable logic. Are there any hidden gems I've missed out on? [1] https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/24/…
With the transition of compute from performance focussed to performance per watt focussed (due to cooling usually being the limiting factor), the niche for the FPGA has almost vanished. There are very very very few compute tasks where an FPGA solves a problem with better performance per watt than both a CPU and a GPU. I would bet that emulating a RISC-V program on x64 is far more power efficient than running a RISC-V…
The aren't many of the them so power usage isn't a bit cost, but their performance effects the performance of many other machines, where most of the power draw is.
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#58I'm disappointed today's general purpose CPU's and microcontrollers don't come with some integrated FPGA space, similar to how you have SRAM and other peripherals. Intel talked about it a few years back [1] but I'm not sure anything materialized. The closest I've seen in popular chips is a few gates worth of programmable logic. Are there any hidden gems I've missed out on? [1] https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/05/24/…
Not in the desktop/server space but there are a few products like this. Xilinx has the Zynq line with 1-2 Cortex-A9 cores paired to an FPGA. Microsemi has their Cortex-M3 based Smartfusion line and is supposedly launching their Polarfire SoC with 4 RISC-V cores plus an FPGA later this year.
MPSoCs have 4x Arm A53s and 2x Arm R5s (and Mali-400 graphics, although they're moving away from that because they found most customers don't care about that).
RFSoCs have something similar - strapped directly to tiles that do 4-6 Gbps analog/digital or digital/analog converters. If you're trying to make a badass missile front end, radio system, or radar system they're amazing!
They even have FEC hard cores that run incredibly fast. They're amazing for all kinds of waveform work.
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#59Worth mentioning SymbiFlow: https://symbiflow.github.io/ , it's a fully open-source flow for FPGAs, Xilinx support (targetting the Arty A7 that the project in this story uses for instance) is on the way so hopefully won't be long until you can build a opensource RISC-V SoC that can run Linux entirely on open source tooling.
To be clear, creating a linux capable Artix-7 image using only open source tools can be done today, right now! https://github.com/SymbiFlow/symbiflow-examples
It's super unimpressive to do a basic processor with flip flops and BRAM with a primitive simulated-annealing P&R. You're getting like... 10% of what the chip from a decade ago was capable of.
BuT iTS OPeN SoUrcE!
Eh. I guess. If your time is worth zero and you're willing to overpay for silicon you can't use effectively with your open tools. Webpack is gratis from Xilinx and it stomps the open source stuff, I have no idea why you'd bother.
Re: VexRiscv is a quadcore, Linux-capable RISC-V softcore for FPGA
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Or really basically anywhere that has you interacting with the real world directly connected to your compute, and not just compute off in a datacenter. Which, at least in mass-market applications, mostly happens on phones and other battery-powered devices. :)
Or the dozens of other devices in your house that have the benefit of mains voltage. I don't think perf per watt was a differentiator in the compute chosen for your TV, your monitor, your AV receiver, your fridge, etc.