Live data from Hacker News

Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

yahoo.com

561–570 of 746 posts

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens when someone spends all their UBI on whiskey or oxy and consumes it all and is then hungry? What's the difference between that and the current reality? Food stamps can be sold and bought on the black market in exchange for drugs and alcohol; people who want whiskey will be able to get it. Whatever money is spent on enforcing the "sanctity" of food stamps could just go to more people directly. And this…

If that’s the core argument for UBI i.e. it’s far more efficient, why do such proposed initiatives come with significant tax increases on the population? Your analysis should theoretically support a net decrease in spending on welfare (hence lower taxes) or best case, no additional increase. You would have a lot broader support if UBI wasn’t tied to egregious tax proposals like a wealth tax.

> If that’s the core argument for UBI i.e. it’s far more efficient, why do such proposed initiatives come with significant tax increases on the population?

This is really just a framing issue.

The way existing programs work, you get $12,000 in food stamps and housing assistance and student loan interest subsidies etc., and then they phase out at higher incomes.

With a UBI, everybody gets it, unconditionally. The "phase out" is taxes. You get $12,000, but by the time you've made e.g. $60,000/year in income, you've paid $12,000 in taxes to fund the UBI, and it cancels out. Opponents paint this as you've paid $12,000 more in taxes, but really it nets to zero. Meanwhile the person making $80,000 might "pay $16,000" in taxes, but it's really only $4000 because they still get the $12,000 UBI.

It's the same as having $12,000 in benefits which phase out below your income level, except that the accounting is much clearer so that you can easily see what the true marginal rates everyone is paying are, and you can't accidentally create ridiculous marginal rate cliffs by having independent programs phase out in the same place.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#562
post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll never stay $1k a month because voters will vote in politicians that will increase it, year after year. We've already seen this happen with the US Social Security program. Why repeat something that is known not to work?

Yeah, was hoping to hear how he planned to address that (unless I missed it?). It'd need to be indexed to something or have other hard controls to prevent that spiraling: "Vote for me, I'll increase it to $2k" "No, vote for me, I'll increase it to $3k!"

There are no controls. Once you put something like that in place and create a dependent population, there is no going back. It would take a violent revolution to repeal it.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#563
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

> UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. The reason you don't do this is that the government is not better at making diapers and laundry detergent than Procter & Gamble nor better at manufacturing Tylenol than Johnson & Johnson nor better at growing tomatoes than local farmers. If you give people $300 then they can buy $300 worth of food. if you give people $300 worth of "…

this whole school choice and insurance choice neoliberal mantra is what has gotten us into this mess to begin with. The entire insurance sector is a huge waste of manpower and essentially just huge dump for the surplus of white collar university graduates that have nowhere to go.

There's not a single person on the planet who derives benefits from navigating the trade-offs of byzantine insurance plans, and school choice is a good way to speed up social and racial segregation and enabling quasi fraudulent religious schools that teach people nonsense.

It's time we do away with this altar of choice. I moved from Germany to the UK years ago, and I've never enjoyed anything more than the NHS because I literally do not have to waste a minute of my life on health insurance any more. I pay X amount of taxes, I go to the doctor, I get treated, I go home.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#564
post #48
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Just like Krugman's QE! How am I going to get back my devalued savings once we find out it doesn't work, all savers have been ruined and fiat money has no value? There's no need to test it on any scale, including small, because it can't work.

The central bank exists to ensure that your fears here are misplaced.

Central banks exist to ensure debasement. By its very nature, fractional reserve banks cannot honor their contracts. The purpose of a central bank is to print money to ensure the solvency of the fractional “reserve” bank cartel.

And predictably, we’re here at zero percent interest rates, large levels of private and public debt, and the public starting to realize that they can use the printing press too and demand to be given free money (UBI).

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#565
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the government starts giving me enough money each month to subsist .... then I'll simply stop working Australia has been doing it for decades. They have low unemployment. Your hypothesis is not borne out in real life.

They clearly state you have to be looking for a job. [1] [1] https://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/appendix-volume-1/9-11-unempl...

Yes. You click a button or fill in a form to say you were. Done.

It's obviously not full-blown UBI, but it's certainly a form of BI, and I think it very clearly dis-proves many of the "supposed" problems that a UBI will create like massive inflation, people lazing about not working, everyone doing drugs, etc. etc.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#566
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

> UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. The reason you don't do this is that the government is not better at making diapers and laundry detergent than Procter & Gamble nor better at manufacturing Tylenol than Johnson & Johnson nor better at growing tomatoes than local farmers. If you give people $300 then they can buy $300 worth of food. if you give people $300 worth of "…

Everything you say just isn't true in many places on Earth.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#567
post #506
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

I think the idea here is that UBI replaces all of the other government welfare programs, no? What happens when someone spends all their UBI on whiskey or oxy and consumes it all and is then hungry? Should we keep food stamps around? Why can't we do that part (universal food stamps) by itself? I don't think the all-or-nothing approach of UBI makes a ton of sense. We can do things today like more free or subsidized foo…

What happens when someone spends all their labor-earned money on whiskey or oxy and consumes it all and is then hungry?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#568
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the earnings part comes before the tax part, which is the proper order of operations. In order to produce earnings, our system dictates that you do something economically useful. That's not a perfect system, but it has produced the modern economy and for all its flaws, no economy in history has produced as much wealth as exists today. It should be noted that if it weren't for the energy we are extracting fr…

The economic system enabled the extraction of fossil fuels in the first place. Capitalism predates the industrial revolution.

Non-capitalist societies that industrialized also saw enormous gains in wealth.

The difference between the US and the USSR was much smaller than the difference between pre-industrialized Russia, and the USSR.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#569
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish you'd explain why this is a bad thing, and that you'd elaborate on it. Do you think half of the people in a UBI world stop working entirely and subsist entirely on their pittance? A third of the people? How few people would be allowed to go screw around instead of working, for this outcome to be okay?

The next time you see a surfer, give him part of your paycheck so he can play in the surf all day while you work to support him.

Can you answer the question directly? This glib response does nothing except, I guess, reveal your dislike of surfers (?).

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#570
post #546
post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What happens when someone spends all their UBI" I think that's the most important question. I believe the story is that one will abuse whatever welfare they get. Whether it's stamps, credits, services or money. Here in Australia they've been trialing a cashless debit card to control what people spend their welfare money on. Somehow, it's still costing _more_ than just giving people money and the recipients aren't…

> Poverty is literally only solved with money. That's a big statement, with a lot of evidence against it. I recall an experiment where a homeless man was given $100,000, and was back on the streets in no time. The idea that you "solve problems with money" seems to be an American disease. That we just haven't pumped enough money into the machine to make it work. Homelessness and poverty are big, complex problems. Mone…

The psychology of a large one time payment versus a passive, smaller one is absolutely immense and should not be equated. Native tribes have oftentimes given their youth large payments that get spent on expensive consumer goods that wind up back in pawn shops, but UBI experiments in Kenya and in low income areas around the world have shown dramatically different results with the hallmarks of upward mobility presenting (risk taking, lower stress, future orientation, etc.). Lottery wins are nothing like a permanent trust fund that pays out if you stay out of jail like in Yang’s UBI.
Post reply on HN