Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

zhoujianfu wrote: post #375

cableshaft wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrew Yang's Humanity Forward organization is not the nation's government. They don't have the resources to make something universal. That's one of the reasons he ran for president, was so he could do that. The people weren't ready this time, but maybe in 4 years, when he's probably going to run again, they'll be more willing to give him a shot. But right now he is doing what he can and working with much, much more…

I’m not the OP, but I would like to see some UBI studies that are at least permanent (per participant), if not universal. It’d be a lot more interesting to me to see what happens when 30 people get $1,000/mo for the rest of their lives than what 20,000 people do with an extra $250 once.

You could run a test case in a low income country where 5 million goes a long way. For example, the median per-capita income in India is $600/yr[1]. You could use this money to provide 3,000 people with $300/yr for 5 years.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/median-income-by...

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by zozbot234 » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

kenhwang wrote: post #342

chillwaves wrote: post #338

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People are free to move to lower cost of living areas. In fact, many would argue this is a benefit of UBI and will bring much needed economic resources to under populated parts of the country. Not everyone needs to live in the Bay Area. COL adjustment to UBI would be a huge mistake and undermine the entire concept.

I think it's a double edged sword. Encouraging people to minimize their COL and spend the money on underinvested areas of the country is fantastic for decreasing the wealth gap. But the other likely outcome is drastic COL inflation in low COL areas which adversely impacts them significantly more.

Low COL areas are so widespread in practice that no real inflation would occur, even if all the money was spent there. Urban living is the kind that's scarce and expensive.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by vkou » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #377

fullshark wrote: post #364

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> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

Because the earnings part comes before the tax part, which is the proper order of operations. In order to produce earnings, our system dictates that you do something economically useful. That's not a perfect system, but it has produced the modern economy and for all its flaws, no economy in history has produced as much wealth as exists today. I am highly skeptical of UBI. The U.S. is the last place that should try it…

> Because the earnings part comes before the tax part, which is the proper order of operations. In order to produce earnings, our system dictates that you do something economically useful. That's not a perfect system, but it has produced the modern economy and for all its flaws, no economy in history has produced as much wealth as exists today.

It should be noted that if it weren't for the energy we are extracting from fossil fuels, we'd all be subsistence peasants eating mud, and shoveling cow shit with our hands for a living.

The economic system is a rounding error, compared to the colossal increase in wealth unlocked by cheap access to energy.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by jacobr1 » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #331

burrows wrote: post #235

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> With 700€/Month you aren't gonna far anyway, you have enaugh for food and rent , and that's it... Contingent benefits disincentivize people from participating in the economy. People paid to do nothing... do nothing. > For America it's different, America cannot technically afford "BI" because the entirety of the US economy has been built on having 20% of the population living under the poverty line in order for good…

A lot of the UBI in Europe is benefits in kind. Healthcare is the obvious one, but also police forces with a higher degree of professionalism, better access to (and treatment by) the justice system, clean water, higher food standards, it goes on. Right now we are benefiting from a coherent and effective response to Covid-19. All these things can be found in the US - if you can afford to pay.

Or live in the right area. The US does have a lot of high quality government services ... unevenly distributed.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by zhoujianfu » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #262

jedberg wrote: post #182

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Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy. Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise.

>Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. There has never been a test on a scale which would lead people to do it though. If you know you're part of a short lived experiment you're not quitting your job.

Yeah, I think it would have been better if they doled out the $5M as $1K/mo for life to 30 people and studied them qualitatively..

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by seph-reed » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #215

seph-reed wrote: post #177

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Good for them. The point of work is to not have to anymore so you can follow your passions. We've invented machines that can do basically everything it takes to support human life. Seems like there should be a lot more people following passions now.

> The point of work is to not have to anymore so you can follow your passions. So Bob needs to work so Fred can follow his passion for surfing and video games?

There's a gradient here. Such thing as "less work" should exist somewhere between "tons of work" and "no work."

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by foobar_ » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

barrenko wrote: post #381

UBI is inevitable. Like software development, whoever makes it first will win and bring us closer to our Star Trekian furute.

Are you sure were are not heading towards The Expanse ;P

Here's one counter argument for UBI. Who will do all the boring work needed for building a dam / apartment ? If we are honest about it, most of this boring, physically harmful and repetitive infrastructure work is only done by the working class that chooses to do it because the alternative is begging. It's because of the threat of extreme poverty and unemployment that the working class works. If they are able to sustain themselves with UBI why would they work ?

Who will do the boring data entry work in our industry ?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by seph-reed » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

loco5niner wrote: post #340

viklove wrote: post #244

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If we really still want them, the law of demand will help us out. The price will go up, and people will start working to be able to afford it. If it turns out that we don't actually want smartphones, new jeans, Starbucks coffee, etc -- then that's great too. We'll end up with a lot less pointless consumption and people can spend their lives chillin' with their buddies!

What will actually happen is the UBI money will FIRST go to smartphones, new jeans, Starbucks coffee, and the necessaries of life will come in second.

If someone does that, by all means stand back and call them an idiot. Let them suffer. It would actually be justified.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by aSplash0fDerp » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

I think developed countries will adopt a "Work on Demand" model that allows workers to order work and have it delivered and picked up (anywhere in their state, county or city) using the advancements of self driving vehicles. It compliments the trends currently underway with WFH/WHA and the same-day delivery aspirations of a few e-tailers.

UBI might be a transition to WoD, but the infrastructure, education and political models should go ahead and calibrate to the flexibility of the labor market(s).

The COL argument should revolve around someone only having to work 20 hours a week to maintain their lifestyle vs someone who has to work 40 hours for the same thing.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Post by jacobr1 » Thu, May 21, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

andrekandre wrote: post #341

slg wrote: post #139

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Because replacing all other forms of social welfare is completely impractical from a political standpoint in either the short or medium term. It would involve huge societal changes that would require most people to rethink how government works. That isn't something that would happen quickly. If you are a UBI proponent, you can either spend multiple decades fighting that fight before you see any progress or you compro…

the other thing is, without proper price controls (rent, basic food stuffs, transportation etc) business will look at it as a chance to jack up prices because "free money" the other aspect is, no amount of ubi is going to cover huge medical costs that the current u.s system incurs, as well as higher education for those thst really do want to improve themselves and contribute so (i think) ubi isnt a bad idea, but it n…

You can only keep the prices high with cartelization or true scarcity. Though removing subsidies (for things like public transport) can also raise prices. But our food supply is highly distributed. If one vendor charges higher-prices, others will take the opportunity to offer lower prices as long as they still can get the margin. We often debate various forms of market failure on this forum, but in the cases of functioning markets, supply and demand does indeed work.