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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#461

Post by chris_va »

chrisin2d wrote: post #323
chris_va wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A higher velocity of capital ~= larger economy, which is good. However, a higher velocity of capital without commensurate economic value being created ~= massive inflation. This is a potential risk for UBI, and one that small-scale studies do not cover. Ideally, the additional economic value would be greater than the face value of the capital transferred every year, but there is no guarantee that is correct (nor is t…

> However, a higher velocity of capital without commensurate economic value being created ~= massive inflation. This is a good point. Money maps to stuff and services. But there is ample surplus production (and unused capacity) in our economy. Every year 40bn+ pounds of food is wasted at the retail level (on top of all the waste that happens before retail in production), while ~11% of the American population is food…

That argument doesn't really hold water.

Having an income (via UBI or some other mechanism) would help the poor, that is true (minus the caveat above about economic upheaval). Assuming that said income will reduce economic waste is not at all evident.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#462

Post by Tade0 »

gowld wrote: post #191
uses wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there has been growing momentum behind the idea that some needs aren't met best by a market approach. One of the ideas behind UBI is that people can figure out what they need, and just spend the money. But that doesn't really solve the needs that may not be optimal for a 100% market approach - probably the big two being health and education.

And housing.

This is the elephant in the room here.

It's a basic good, but its price is still very much driven by supply and demand.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#463

Post by elicash »

Press2forEN wrote: post #110

Years ago, proponents of UBI claimed that it was a replacement for all other forms of social welfare. Now it appears by most proposals to be yet another means-tested add-on. What happened?

Proponents of UBI were ALWAYS a coalition of different people who came from different ideological backgrounds and believed different things.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#464

Post by zaroth »

habitue wrote: post #330
Tiktaalik wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually a big bureaucratic problem to give people several thousand dollars and then demand most of it back later. Most people don't notice income taxes since it comes out of their paycheque. It would genuinely be tough problem to educate people to not spend their basic income, or to design a system where it's clawed back through paycheques.

That's why it's often formulated as a negative income tax

Wouldn’t a negative income tax mean that the credit gets progressively larger as you earn more money? This would not be the desired effect.

I think the desired effect is simply a refundable tax credit, and then you can adjust the existing progressive tax rates as needed.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#465

Post by 1propionyl »

slg wrote: post #139
Press2forEN wrote: post #110

Years ago, proponents of UBI claimed that it was a replacement for all other forms of social welfare. Now it appears by most proposals to be yet another means-tested add-on. What happened?

Because replacing all other forms of social welfare is completely impractical from a political standpoint in either the short or medium term. It would involve huge societal changes that would require most people to rethink how government works. That isn't something that would happen quickly. If you are a UBI proponent, you can either spend multiple decades fighting that fight before you see any progress or you compro…

It's also just not a good idea. Social welfare programs act as single buyers/negotiators and can exploit economies of scale and collective bargaining to deliver reduced costs. Something that individuals can't do.

Giving everyone their own money for, say healthcare costs, and having them navigate markets alone... achieves exactly the kind of divide-and-conquer that price-gouging pharmaceutical companies and hospitals have wet dreams about.

The only good UBI supplements, but does not replace, most existing social welfare programs.

Replacing existing programs just creates an open season for vultures.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#466

Post by par1970 »

joppy wrote: post #389
asien wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Propaganda. Nope it’s not. In order for welfare to be « legalized » , and for taxpayer to accept that their money will go to «Non-Active» individuals it’s necessary to have a cultural fit between the two. You cant tax like Norway or France ( 40% overall ) if people believe that you should work to earn a living, it’s not right to do so. American would never accept such sky high taxe rate if it cause against their be…

A very high progressive tax is compatible with the belief that people should work to earn a living. If I have a lot of money, I can invest it and for almost no work grow my wealth or get another income stream. How is that fair? And why does this observation often get left behind?

> If I have a lot of money, I can invest it and for almost no work grow my wealth or get another income stream. How is that fair?

One doesn’t just “have” a lot of money. People work hard for their money. A high wage is a signal saying, “We (society) value what you do and wish more people would do it.”

If you think profitable investing is easy then you don’t invest. Ask yourself, if profitable investing is easy, then why do wealthy people pay venture capitalists to choose their investments?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#467

Post by 1propionyl »

jacobr1 wrote: post #400
andrekandre wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the other thing is, without proper price controls (rent, basic food stuffs, transportation etc) business will look at it as a chance to jack up prices because "free money" the other aspect is, no amount of ubi is going to cover huge medical costs that the current u.s system incurs, as well as higher education for those thst really do want to improve themselves and contribute so (i think) ubi isnt a bad idea, but it n…

You can only keep the prices high with cartelization or true scarcity. Though removing subsidies (for things like public transport) can also raise prices. But our food supply is highly distributed. If one vendor charges higher-prices, others will take the opportunity to offer lower prices as long as they still can get the margin. We often debate various forms of market failure on this forum, but in the cases of funct…

This is only if you assume that a market saturated by advertisement is (properly) "functioning".

While advertisers like to claim that they are merely improving distribution of information (bringing us closer to that mythical "perfect information" assumption about competitive markets), in practice they mostly do the opposite.

That is, taking advantage of cognitive biases to sell people things they don't need, increasing net market participant irrationality.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#468

Post by twblalock »

nyhc99 wrote: post #411
WalterBright wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of work is to not have to anymore so you can follow your passions. So Bob needs to work so Fred can follow his passion for surfing and video games?

Bob needs to work because Bob wants to buy nicer things and lead a fuller life than sitting around playing video games in a dirty shack like Fred. Bob's work isn't subsidizing Fred's lifestyle unfairly (at least under Yang's proposal) because the UBI is paid for by a tax on consumption (the VAT)

> Bob's work isn't subsidizing Fred's lifestyle unfairly (at least under Yang's proposal) because the UBI is paid for by a tax on consumption (the VAT)

So then it's Bob's consumption that subsidizes Fred? That doesn't seem fair either. When Bob consumes, he spends money he earned through work. One way or another, money he earned is taken from him and given to Fred.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#469

Post by [deleted] »

grayfaced wrote: post #293
nogabebop23 wrote: post #256

>> Yang says Humanity Forward plans to immediately distribute Dorsey’s contribution in the form of small cash grants of $250 to nearly 20,000 people who’ve lost their jobs or taken an economic hit as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic So money based on certain non-universal conditions? Isn't this one of the root problems? People cannot accept a truly universal system - you've already got too much; that guy lives in th…

Even universal has winners and losers. How do you deal with different cost of livings between Bay Area and Mississippi? If the UBI is not adjusted and covers living expenses in cheap areas but not expensive areas, then people might decide to live cheaply without a job. That risks creating slums. If it's adjusted to locality, then areas will grow and dwindle based on accuracy of those adjustment tables. Which would tu…

[deleted]

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#470

Post by AndrewKemendo »

elicash wrote: post #463
Press2forEN wrote: post #110

Years ago, proponents of UBI claimed that it was a replacement for all other forms of social welfare. Now it appears by most proposals to be yet another means-tested add-on. What happened?

Proponents of UBI were ALWAYS a coalition of different people who came from different ideological backgrounds and believed different things.

Well that's certainly true of every cause right?
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