Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory • Hacker News Board

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#221

Post by kenneth » Thu, May 21, 2020, 12:43 PM UTC

ohyeshedid wrote: post #148

kenneth wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need genocide to reduce population, just birth rate policies. Most developed nations already have declining native populations (sometimes the overall population grows only through immigration). China had a one-child policy for a while. I think the world would be much better if other countries would restrict the reproduction of humans in a sensible way. Only those who can afford to bring up children with a m…

Laws don't prevent crime. So, then, are you advocating for forced abortions or forced birth control? What would the penalties be for reproducing without approval?

That's a solved problem. It worked in China without forced sterilizations. Just like how we have laws against theft… doesn't mean theft won't exist, but the law and appropriate punishment does reduce it to manageable levels.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#222

Post by dijit » Thu, May 21, 2020, 12:44 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #173

There were a lot of humor pictures on reddit about this. Things like "you can see X for the first time since Y". I'm suspecting it could be an astroturfing effort by the fossil fuels lobby, to try to discredit the real pictures. I guess I'm paranoid, but at least it shows I have little faith in the internet.

Honestly, the amount that public discourse can be swayed by "meme makers" and other such things has left me very disillusioned.

No doubt there are people who either have a marginal vested interest in denying this ("I love my truck/status quo/flights") and also normal people who are typically contrarian. -- these people can be easily swayed by people who have a financial investment in keeping things fossil friendly.

I saw a video from Vox recently[0] where they have some people from 'knowyourmeme' making memes for the US democratic representative debates, it was eye opening.

When you think of Memes you think of grassroots folks, people who just sit in their living room and think of something funny, make a low effort pop culture reference and then continue living their lives. You _don't_ imagine people sitting in boardrooms thinking up the best comedic caption that simultaneously promotes brands or ideas.. the concept feels absurd, yet, it happens.

Now I'm completely jaded; I am immediately distrustful of comments or memes containing even subjects I agree with, I still have some form of trust in ordinary media because at least it's not as anonymous.

[0]: https://www.vox.com/2019/11/1/20942599/glad-you-asked-episod...

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#223

Post by senorjazz » Thu, May 21, 2020, 12:50 PM UTC

101404 wrote: post #220

saagarjha wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they are using natural gas instead of biomass?

Not really. Wood or coal stoves are still very much in use in villages. At least that's what I saw living in many developing countries for the past two decades. Btw, burning biomass would not change the problem. Wood and charcoal is biomass too.

People in Kathmandu are using gas. That's a few million people. Sure in the villages, but the numbers pale in comparison

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#224

Post by dorfsmay » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:10 PM UTC

Well take a good hard look, because as economies are slowly re-opening, everybody is going back to their old habits, even worse like people wanting to stay away from public transport as pointed out in this thread (1). I see it locally, but it also has been measured in post-lock down China (2).

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23255270

[2]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-...

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#225

Post by executive » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:16 PM UTC

idiocratic wrote: post #128

remus wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'living memory' claim seems a bit far fetched, too. Let's pretend living memory means the last 100 years, that'd mean air pollution levels in 1920 wee so poor you couldn't see Everest from Kathmandu. I'm no expert, but I don't think Nepal and the surrounding area of China were industrialised at that time, and there definitely weren't many vehicles on the road at the time, so where would the air pollution have com…

Been to Kathmandu several times and I wouldn't say Nepal is industrialised in general, but not even remotely at the level of China. What makes the air really bad in Kathmandu is the amount of old trucks and buses on the very dusty streets of the city. It's a different kind of air pollution to what you might experience in an industrialised nation. When I'm there I always wear a mask, otherwise a cough will develop alm…

Also: burning trash every night

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#226

Post by icebraining » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

hoseja wrote: post #171

TomMarius wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it, or are you confusing population growth with immigration?

Do you not see line go up? [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

It's still growing, but not exactly skyrocketing anymore: "The highest global population growth rates, with increases of over 1.8% per year, occurred between 1955 and 1975—peaking to 2.1% between 1965 and 1970. The growth rate declined to 1.2% between 2010 and 2015 and is projected to decline further in the course of the 21st century."

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#227

Post by austincheney » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

idiocratic wrote: post #128

remus wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'living memory' claim seems a bit far fetched, too. Let's pretend living memory means the last 100 years, that'd mean air pollution levels in 1920 wee so poor you couldn't see Everest from Kathmandu. I'm no expert, but I don't think Nepal and the surrounding area of China were industrialised at that time, and there definitely weren't many vehicles on the road at the time, so where would the air pollution have com…

Been to Kathmandu several times and I wouldn't say Nepal is industrialised in general, but not even remotely at the level of China. What makes the air really bad in Kathmandu is the amount of old trucks and buses on the very dusty streets of the city. It's a different kind of air pollution to what you might experience in an industrialised nation. When I'm there I always wear a mask, otherwise a cough will develop alm…

Kabul is the same with a huge amount of air pollution, like a visible white fog. Kabul is also not incredibly industrialized.

The hard part about Kabul is the geography. It is a raised elevation surrounded by a ring of mountains like a large crater on a giant mountain top. The bowl shape traps the air pollution within the city and it absolutely does obscure visibility.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#228

Post by icebraining » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:42 PM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #57

mmaunder wrote: post #9

This is why we need less humans on this planet. No one says that, because having as many kids as you like seems to be considered a basic human right. But imagine Earth with a stable 10% of our current population. Clean, abundant, and without the catastrophic extinction event already underway.

Fewer humans is a cop out. We need humans who won't pollute the earth to death. We need borderline Authoritarianism that protects the environment. 90 or so percent of humans just want to survive. If society tells them they need a carbon emitting vehicle to survive, they do that. Humans aren't the problem, our society is.

All vehicles are carbon emitting, some just less than others. The question is whether efficiency is enough to maintain a reasonable quality of life for 10 billion people with zero net carbon (and other pollution). If the price is authoritarianism, I'd rather avoid having children, thanks.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#229

Post by tomp » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #212

tomp wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really interesting reasoning. I'm almost tempted to say "extremely unscientific". 1. "no evidence of microplastics being harmful" sounds very much like WHO's "no evidence of human transmission". Personally, I'd say that in both scenarios, the outcome we should be most worried about is tail risks - what if we suddenly realize the situation is much worse than we imagined, but it's already too late... 2. Is "climate cha…

I'd argue the two basic heuristics I apply in this and similar cases are pretty scientific: 1) Strong effects are obvious in the data; conversely, if you have to dig deep and play with statistical significance to prove there's a connection, the effect is very weak - it's a scientific curiosity, sure, but "to zeroth order of approximation" you may as well say it doesn't exit. 2) When ascertaining the possible impact o…

Good answer, thanks!

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#230

Post by NeutronStar » Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #189

TeMPOraL wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what I meant by my response is that, in this hypothetical scenario, the products themselves are fine. Nice, clean, safe, recyclable, whatnot. It's the manufacturing process that's polluting. You can't ban a product from being sold in your country on the grounds that manufacturing it in another country is an ecological disaster. Meanwhile, all those jobs are highly desirable (not just for your personal benef…

> You can't ban a product from being sold in your country on the grounds that manufacturing it in another country is an ecological disaster. Why not? Constituents like it because it brings back the jobs that left because moving them out allowed companies to avoid environmental regulations, which they can now not avoid either way if they want to sell in your country and so might as well bring the jobs back.

Except when they left it was 10k jobs, which got down to 2k jobs in China, now you want the factory back sure, that'll be 500 jobs for you. Automation doesn't stop.