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Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

k1ss.org

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Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#51

Post by chmod775 »

throwaway023421 wrote: post #44
pampa wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might seem like a limitation. But you can provide a base system with a toolchain & xorg with known dependencies and a limited set of packages (like a BSD base system). Then for every big and complex app clone that base system and build the app in a chroot/sandbox or container. That way you get the app and dont pollute the base system and uninstalling is just rm -rf On every distro uninstalling packages never rea…

> On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind. Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years.

> Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years.

Not really. It can remove configuration files etc. it knows about, but it can't know about files later created by the application itself.

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#52

Post by edraferi »

microtonal wrote: post #33
pampa wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nix is more like installing every package in its own chroot, with a few optimizations. not your starnard linux package manager

That's too much of a simplification. In NixOS you still have global configuration files, such as /etc/fstab . However, they are symlinks to Nix store paths that are associated with the current generation. $ realpath /etc/fstab /nix/store/06k708q78zxw8922rrrc8mmp5gbin4am-etc-fstab However, NixOS installations can also end up accumulating configuration and state files that stick around when they are not defined declara…

I’m just getting started with Nix, with the explicit goal of making my entire system defined in a private , remote git repo. I want to be able to rapidly re-provision my entire user environment on a new machine, including applications, preferences, etc.

For the moment I’m doing this on MacOS with the nix package manager. I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizing to work despite using the official ISO which is supposed to have the appropriate extensions installed.

My current hurdle is exactly the topic of this thread: non-binary configs. For example, what am I supposed to do with .zprofile? I think I’m supposed to write a custom Nix derivation for ZSH that includes any and all customizations. I’m concerned that might cause problems with MacOS system ZSH. I can probably fix that with a custom login shell?

Anyway it’s fun, but complicated and diversely documented. Gonna take a while to sort it all out.

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#53

Post by jllaneras »

danielscrubs wrote: post #13

I loved the idea (git everything!) until I read this: "How do I remove a package and all of its dependencies? [...] The package manager does not do recursive dependency removal on removal of a package. This error-prone automation will not be added to the package manager. "

Instead, the workflow is to remove the single package and then look at the output of the 'kiss-orphans' command to see what can now be removed. This command will list all packages which have no relationship with other packages, otherwise known as orphans.

This list may include Firefox and other "end" software so a brain is required when parsing the list. You'll come to learn the relationships between packages and their dependencies and this will eventually become effortless.

https://k1ss.org/faq

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#54

Post by UI_at_80x24 »

I applaud your efforts, and am happy to see more options available. I really hope this takes off. Your choice to not include systemd is a HUGE incentive for me to try this out.

1 super-small nit to pick: the sub-title "..a focus on less is more.." I took that way too literally and thought it was referencing the tool `less` and was expecting it to have used less as a wrapper for everything. (call it a brain fart, and lack of caffeine)

I FUCKING LOVE YOUR WEB PAGE.

Thank-you so fucking much for reminding people and showing that simple is beautiful. Everything is clear, obvious and legible.

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#55

Post by microtonal »

edraferi wrote: post #52
microtonal wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's too much of a simplification. In NixOS you still have global configuration files, such as /etc/fstab . However, they are symlinks to Nix store paths that are associated with the current generation. $ realpath /etc/fstab /nix/store/06k708q78zxw8922rrrc8mmp5gbin4am-etc-fstab However, NixOS installations can also end up accumulating configuration and state files that stick around when they are not defined declara…

I’m just getting started with Nix, with the explicit goal of making my entire system defined in a private , remote git repo. I want to be able to rapidly re-provision my entire user environment on a new machine, including applications, preferences, etc. For the moment I’m doing this on MacOS with the nix package manager. I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizi…

My current hurdle is exactly the topic of this thread: non-binary configs. For example, what am I supposed to do with .zprofile? I think I’m supposed to write a custom Nix derivation for ZSH that includes any and all customizations. I’m concerned that might cause problems with MacOS system ZSH. I can probably fix that with a custom login shell?

I use both NixOS and macOS. You can take two routes: 1. you can continue using Apple's /bin/zsh and just use a .zprofile generated using Nix (e.g. home-manager). Generally, the differences between zsh versions are not that large and it just works. This is what I have been doing with my Mac. 2. You could change your shell, either system-wide, or just for Terminal.app to ~/.nix-profile/bin/zsh.

I’ll eventually move to NixOS. I tried to run NixOS in VirtualBox, but couldn’t get screen resizing to work despite using the official ISO which is supposed to have the appropriate extensions installed.

If you have some leftover hardware, try it! NixOS is a different experience altogether and cannot be paralleled by Nix on macOS or a Linux distribution. Being able to declaratively define your whole system is insanely cool and powerful. Fully reproducible machines. Also, you can try out stuff without any harm. Just switch back to the previous working generation (or try the configuration in a VM with nixos-rebuild build-vm) if you are not happy.

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#56

Post by _n_b_ »

UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #54

I applaud your efforts, and am happy to see more options available. I really hope this takes off. Your choice to not include systemd is a HUGE incentive for me to try this out. 1 super-small nit to pick: the sub-title "..a focus on less is more.." I took that way too literally and thought it was referencing the tool `less` and was expecting it to have used less as a wrapper for everything. (call it a brain fart, and…

On most systems these days, 'less' is more:

  % cksum `which less` `which more`
  2677110273 146976 /usr/bin/less
  2677110273 146976 /usr/bin/more

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#57

Post by nerdponx »

chmod775 wrote: post #51
throwaway023421 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On every distro uninstalling packages never really reverts the system to its previous state, always leaves some junk behind. Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years.

> Not at all. Apt has been able to remove everything for the last 20 years. Not really. It can remove configuration files etc. it knows about, but it can't know about files later created by the application itself.

I'd say that's either 1) outside the scope of the package manager, or 2) mostly-solvable as long as your package manager allows you to specify "extra files created by the application that I do not install but I will want to uninstall."

That's also not what's being asked for here. The basic request is this: track which packages were manually vs automatically installed, and give the user the ability to remove automatically-installed orphans whose manually-installed reverse-dependencies are no longer installed. This is what APT does and it works fine 99% of the time.

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#58

Post by skookum-skuad »

danielscrubs wrote: post #13

I loved the idea (git everything!) until I read this: "How do I remove a package and all of its dependencies? [...] The package manager does not do recursive dependency removal on removal of a package. This error-prone automation will not be added to the package manager. "

Yuck. The only way out of dependency hell is to disallow it by allowing multiple versions/different configurations of side-by-side packages and GCing non-leaf packages. This pattern of "only one global package for everything" is failure. Too often, naïve designers will just cut things because they just don't understand them or copy & paste because they don't understand what failures exist and what solutions do/alternatives could exist.

Habitat (hab), nix, and others IIRC do SxS package mgmt.

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - possibly paraphrasing Einstein

Re: Kiss Linux – A distribution with a focus on less is more

#60

Post by KitDuncan »

globular-toast wrote: post #19
danielscrubs wrote: post #13

I loved the idea (git everything!) until I read this: "How do I remove a package and all of its dependencies? [...] The package manager does not do recursive dependency removal on removal of a package. This error-prone automation will not be added to the package manager. "

All of Gentoo's packages are in git and it does support recursive removal: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo

Also Void and xbps.
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