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The death of corporate research labs

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Re: The death of corporate research labs

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think those companies got to be mature monopolies? Someone had to do the research to find out which “hot singles near you” banner ad has the highest conversion rates. I say that tongue-in-cheek, but only partly. There actually is a ton of research that goes into following things like cultural trends and human psychology to ensure maximum ad consumption. Advertising in the middle of a mobile game or on Netf…

Digital ad tech may be mature but search is not. If it was then the experience of using any search engine would be very much the same but in my experience that is not close to being true yet.

But isn't the experience pretty much the identical? Google, Bing and DDG look essentially the same; the two main differences are the colour of the lipstick, and the search index. The main experience - type in words, get suggestions while typing, confirm and have it show relevant webpages + various info/image/videoboxes - it's universal now.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#42

Holdup. Lack of anti-trust enforcement is blamed (among other things) for the end of corporate R&D, but Monopoly breakup is exactly what killed Bell labs! 9 smaller companies weren't going to fund their own lab, and the only reason the lab existed was to find new markets to explore. In fact, nearly all of the examples of successful R&D labs came from corporations that so dominated their industry they put money into f…

I used to think monopolies were inherently progress limiting, but as you point out it's a mixed bag. Bell labs was an amazing center of innovation even as AT&T stifled the telephone market. Not sure corporate labs could exist today with the self-defeating (and legally incorrect notion) that the primary duty of a public company is to make money for shareholders. That philosophy today would/will prevent large companies from investing in their own future via plush corporate labs. There's a great quote from Alan Kay that Xerox did actually make enormous profits from their Xerox Park labs, as the labs invented laser printing, but Xerox decided not to make trillions by pursuing their invention of graphical personal computers and ethernet.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#43

The corporate research labs have been replaced with the likes of DeepMind (hell bent on doing research only in neural networks) and Google X (personal playground of the company's founder with no known scientific or business output). The fact that big tech does not invest in basic research anymore does not bode well for the future of big tech.

What an ill informed comment - Google, Microsoft, Facebook are among the largest producers of original research in CS, especially for machine learning these days. You can look at any major conference in the last few years, and it will not be surprising to see one or two of these names being at the top in terms of papers contributed.

You're partially right if the argument is "basic research" = less applied fields / "purer" math, but even there Microsoft research has been a significant player in the TCS and optimization community.

A lot of the current research done at universities is also funded by these organizations, either via grants (monetary or equipment like from Nvidia) to research labs, or scholarships and financial support to students. A large part of AI advancement in the past few years have been precisely because of the amount of effort these firms have put in (along with a lot of others, they are just the most public).

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#44

I have often found it baffling that tech giants, with near unlimited resources to fund all sorts of things, don't establish these kinds of labs. I'm aware that there are many things called something like "{Google, Facebook, Twitter, ...} Labs" but from what I understand they are significantly different from the corporate research labs of old.

I'm not sure what "corporate research labs of old" did differently from what Google Research, Microsoft Research, or FAIR do. They are all significant investments in personnel and equipment by these firms, and produce fundamental research and are arguably as good as the best universities in the world at it (if not better at some things owing to sheer scale). A lot of MSR's work isn't even directly applicable, people work on theoretical computer science and optimization theory while being permanent researchers there. Similar cases exist across the industry.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#45
post #31

I work for one of the last traditional corporate research labs in Silicon Valley, and I consider myself very fortunate to have my position, especially in the time of COVID-19. I love doing research. But I fear losing my job, partly because I don't know where I'd find another research position in light of the 30-year decline of industrial research combined with the impending budget cuts that will hit academia starting…

In general I agree with the warning in your comment, but I think there's second challenge besides funding at universities. I mean, funding is always hard, but right now it's a decent time for computer science funding. There's the DoD (for things more about AI and security), NIH (for things with some health relevance), industry (ML and topical problems), or NSF which is more generous towards CS than any other field today. But funding isn't as much of a problem for PhD students who should be supported by their advisors, so they have a good several years of solid focused research time.

The challenge I'm talking about is papers, specifically the game of publishing. I feel like PhD students spend more time in optimizing for publications than doing actual research. There's an obsession with the number of papers so everyone is trying to eek out a paper for every semi-failed experiment, overfitted model, or unfinished prototype. No one wants to throw away effort on something that basically failed, so they're trying to find the perfect narrative, frame their results just so it looks like they're good, or slice and combine it into something submittable. Every deadline is worth submitting to, the number of selective conferences is growing, and there's incentive to "get on" another paper as a co-author (which means building collaborations, helping out, editing).

For each paper, there's months spent writing, giving and receiving feedback, making figures and formatting. Each submission usually requires some change to the format and language, so upon rejection, the paper is edited and targeted towards the next conference. Then there's the submission game of proposing reviewers, choosing the right track or subcommittee, interpreting reviews, writing multi-page rebuttals, editing and getting feedback from co-authors about the rebuttals, and in the best case a month later, preparing the camera-ready version, the back-and-forth with the publisher, and finally preparing and practicing the conference presentation.

So before great research can truly come out of universities, I think publications need to be deemphasized. This could be a simple norm like judging researchers on their best 3 papers for faculty hiring and research awards. In turn, that would reduce paper submissions, increase paper acceptance rates, and finally -- leave more time for actual research at universities.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#46

Holdup. Lack of anti-trust enforcement is blamed (among other things) for the end of corporate R&D, but Monopoly breakup is exactly what killed Bell labs! 9 smaller companies weren't going to fund their own lab, and the only reason the lab existed was to find new markets to explore. In fact, nearly all of the examples of successful R&D labs came from corporations that so dominated their industry they put money into f…

It's not being too large that forced a split up but their anti-competitive practices and positions. The regional bells still were big enough to run their own research labs.

Imagine if Alphabet was broken up, Google search can still afford to run a research lab, as can youtube.

The problem I think is how easy it is for large companies to acquire smaller companies. It's how they expand or enter a market, they refuse to be bothered to bootstrap a new org-unit. They just devour smaller, innovative and creative companies. Look at Google, they couldn't be creative and patient enough to compete with youtube so they gulp up youtube. It's the bigcorp M.O.

So why bother with R&D when you can just buy a smaller company that does R&D, tests the market and builds a brand for you? My answer: you will suffer from brain drain.and reputation loss,when you buy a smaller company,consumers assume that brand is now dead. You become a cemerery of dreams and ideas. You become an IBM,HP,Xerox and AT&T. Once the damage is done it becomes nearl impossible to recover from. I like IBM as the best example, they are doing superb amounta of innovation even today but look at all their initiatives lack any traction or competitive edge. They have a ton of smart people working on brand new areas of tech like quantum computing,but their reputation and overall culture has not been great. They've been declining consistently. Look at yahoo, yahoo!! They had legitimate means to compete with google toe-to-toe,they relied too much on aquisitions as did Verizon that recently aquired them for a meager $4B.

In the end I blame all this on how publicly traded companies prioritize quarterly profits as opposed to multi-year growth. Acquiring bumps up the stock value for a while, spending billions starting from scratch competing or developing a new concept is risky so stocks go down.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#47

Holdup. Lack of anti-trust enforcement is blamed (among other things) for the end of corporate R&D, but Monopoly breakup is exactly what killed Bell labs! 9 smaller companies weren't going to fund their own lab, and the only reason the lab existed was to find new markets to explore. In fact, nearly all of the examples of successful R&D labs came from corporations that so dominated their industry they put money into f…

Just about everything in the article doesn’t pass a sniff test to me. Aside from the issue you mentioned, the article seems to be making the claim that we have less innovation today. Which just seems like a ridiculous claim to me. It also mentions “pervasive short-termism” as an obstacle. It might be in large public companies, but it’s certainly not in the private equity markets. Innovative companies have access to h…

Really interesting point regarding the many year unprofitable VC backed companies being almost a replacement form of corporate lab. Though most of those aren't pursuing "hard technology" equivalents to inventing transistors or the like. Well perhaps Quantum Computers at Google, but they don't seem to be pursuing that correctly. What are your thoughts on hard technology like that?

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#48

Why would ad companies need research labs?

Because the companies that HN likes to sarcastically call "ad companies" actually ship many sophisticated products to their customers (both users and advertisers)? Products with features and infrastructure enabled by research done in their research labs?

They could stop working on their products but they wouldn't last long. The consumer tech world changes rapidly and is fiercely competitive.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#49
I have a different take on this: corporate research labs died because we aggressively clamped down on monopolies.

When you don't have a monopoly, the investor mindset is that the company should be laser-focused on "core competencies" (buzzword, but important) and return excess capital to shareholders - who then provide it to other companies that will innovate in the field. Keep in mind, the universe of alternative investments go beyond the stock market/PE/VC.

Capital is tied to shareholder value. When you can't point to something creating value, there isn't a reason for capital to stay. For a company to maintain a research lab, it needs to be perceived as something other than a cost center. In contrast, Bell was able to entertain its own full-fledged R&D labs because shareholders expected them to create new avenues of profit themselves because they were the monopoly.

Re: The death of corporate research labs

#50
I actually work in a corporate research lab, with 1000+ researchers working on all kinds of things. One thing that proves to be tricky is the "mission" these kinds of labs have. There is always a tension between direct work for business units on next years product, and research for novel ideas and methods. The former is what what keeps the lab afloat, financially. The latter is what is hoped to keep the company as a whole afloat in the future. But this includes investing money in projects that will not pan out and just burn money. Finding this balance is hard.

Tensions like these might very well be the reason corporate research has declined.

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