My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk. • Hacker News Board

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#191

Post by forensic » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 10:31 PM UTC

jhamburger wrote: post #65

If we were to generalize and put nerds into three broad categories- 1. Lower-case 'n' nerds for whom coding is as much of a day job as it possibly can be and lead rewarding and socially active lives away from their computers. 2. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they find it to be rewarding in and of itself. 3. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they aren't very good at…

1 and 2 sound like distinct personality types and 3 sounds like a neurotic person

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#192

Post by pdaviesa » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 10:42 PM UTC

jrwoodruff wrote: post #187

DanI-S wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it this way: The only reason to give condescending feedback is to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're criticizing. If you truly wanted to be helpful, you'd be giving helpful feedback. If you were truly confident in your own abilities, you wouldn't feel the need to demonstrate your superiority.

I've heard stories that Steve Jobs can often be a condescending asshole. I'm certain the same is true for other highly accomplished folks as well; if condescension were linked to confidence, wouldn't highly accomlished individuals such as this be amazingly generous and helpful? I think the bit about superiority may be true: it is a way to demonstrate superiority, but I don't believe that immediately indicates low con…

Some of the most successful people are very insecure. That's one of the factors that drives them relentlessly forward - the fear that everyone will find out their not actually good enough.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#193

Post by crasshopper » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 10:48 PM UTC

cakeface wrote: post #150

mgns wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully just one generation as being an ass may stop them from getting along with the opposite sex and reproduce...

Unfortunately being an ass is frequently a great way to get laid. Nice guys finish last and all...

Sure, lots of men ('cause programmers are male, right?) get positive female attention by publicly insulting people who know less about programming and computers.

Meanness is always unattractive. Always.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#194

Post by entreprenewb » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 10:49 PM UTC

bgurupra wrote: post #163

DanI-S wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it this way: The only reason to give condescending feedback is to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're criticizing. If you truly wanted to be helpful, you'd be giving helpful feedback. If you were truly confident in your own abilities, you wouldn't feel the need to demonstrate your superiority.

I think condescending feedback = insecurity is a bit of a generalization.Maybe sometimes it is true but not all the time - for example Linus' "feedback" on CVS was pretty condescending but I doubt that was because he was insecure

And let's not confuse real condescension with blunt truth that's interpreted as condescension but is not inherently malicious. I think a lot of people may seem condescending because they are more direct than most people are accustomed to.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#195

Post by etherael » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 10:54 PM UTC

Damn straight, all intolerant people should be taken out and shot.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#196

Post by Tycho » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 11:10 PM UTC

huertanix wrote: post #183

Tycho wrote: post #45

The worst part is the practice of deliberately trying to make someone feel bad about themselves over a discussion about iPods or something. What sort of person does that? Thankfully I hardly ever see it on HN, but elsewhere it's rife.

You see it a lot between iOS and Android camps. I get flak from Android fanboys constantly and I don't even use an iPhone . If each system was so perfect, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to prove anything. We're pitted into camps of imperfect systems in which each side is perfectly aware of their side's flaws but avoid the geek-sin of admitting they use something less than perfect by only pointing out everything…

I know one guy who used to actually reply saying, 'read what you just wrote, and feel bad about yourself.' One of the main problems though is that half the people on these forums are 10-18 year olds. I mean even Hacker News has a median age of only 25 (according to a recent poll), and it seems super-grown-up.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#197

Post by discreteevent » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 11:23 PM UTC

count wrote: post #62

generalk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. Sometimes. A hacker writing a quickie web server for the experience of doing so is laudable. This applies to lots of types of projects: toy OSes, social networking protocols, web frameworks, what have you. Exploration is fun, and key to the hacker spirit. The difficulty comes from knowing the limitations of your skills. I got my web programming chops by reading a bunch of PHP tutorials back in 1998 and…

Here, here! Learning someething, and selling (for money, or otherwise) the not-acceptable-for-use side effect of your learning something as a 'finished' product can be dangerous to the end customer. Not being able to skateboard well means you're going to fall and bust your knees or elbows or face. It's dangerous to you, and potentially comedic to your compatriots. Publishing a website full of XSS/SQLI problems and st…

I think you make a good point and I really don't mean to be critical but the pedant in me must point out that the correct phrase is "hear hear"

....or should I say:

WTF man! English is your native tounge. What the hell are you doing writing if its clear that you don't even read??? How could "here here" make any sense as a phrase? And if it doesn't make any sense why don't you take the fing finger out and google it!!! Have you been this moronic all your life or have you just started recently?

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#198

Post by azal » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 11:37 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Its surprising how rarely you find any of the mentioned Excellent's in daily life

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#199

Post by Dylanlacey » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 11:51 PM UTC

nmaio wrote: post #166

khafra wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-infectious ignorance can be left alone. A state senator with a PR platform, using it to spread ignorance of a sort that ruins millions of lives, cannot be left alone in good conscience. You have a moral obligation to be less wrong: http://www.wrongbot.com/2011/02/27/stop-being-wrong-a-moral-...

Regardless of reach, I still don't believe attacking or embarrassing someone is the answer. My conscience is better off letting someone have a right to their own opinion (albeit a poor one), rather than attacking them for it. In other words, I'd rather choose to understand where their point of view is coming from and accept it, than to try and change it.

But unfortunately points of view aren't innocent things that everyone is entitled to. They can cause SERIOUS damage to the lives of other people.

If I have a point of view that binder clips should be made illegal because they're hideous, and manage to make that a law, then A: My point of view is making regular stationers criminals, and B: I might have put people who make binder clips out of work.

Everyone has a point of view, but not all of them are reasonable, and simply having them can screw other people up.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#200

Post by Dylanlacey » Mon, Mar 14, 2011, 11:57 PM UTC

Honestly, I'm on the other side of the fence. I've found that good programming shops are a bit offensive and a bit agro when discussing code, and it leaks playfully out into regular relations. It needs to be offensive, but not about the person themselves (like all good criticism)

"What? This sorting code is slower the a walrus walking uphill" "Dude, your lunch STINKS, are you cooking a month-dead skunk?" "That's retarded. It won't work. At all. Ever."

Sure, they sound a bit harsh, but they're not actually offensive because you KNOW they're not about you, or are only peripherally about your judgment, and it's an unavoidable fact that some people have terrible judgment.

The shops I've worked in with quiet, softly given feedback have been those that aren't doing anything interesting, are moving slowly and don't really have any great developers, or even better then average ones. In my mind there's a definite correlation between boisterous shops and great ones.