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My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

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Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#61

Post by stuhacking »

dexen wrote: post #46
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Each of the `Excellent xxx' response you give differs in two important hitches from the `Insecure xxx': 1) it requires much common context, understanding, experience. Everybody will understand a ``this sucks'' response, regardless of the reasoning behind it being clear. Understanding a, and building better solution on, an involved response requires common understanding, common experience, between the parties of commu…

2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-)

I realise that this is intended for humour, but more seriously, I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably with someone and making a friendly recommendation. ``This sucks'' just passes on the negativity to others.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#62

Post by count »

generalk wrote: post #42
agentultra wrote: post #11

It's true. I don't know how many times I've watched eager hackers get lambasted for "reinventing the wheel," or "don't bother doing it yourself, you'll just screw it up -- someone has probably done it already and did it better than you could." This happens most often at the intersection of technology and entrepreneurship. The business advice is that it's cheaper to buy it than build it. The engineer's perspective is…

You're right. Sometimes. A hacker writing a quickie web server for the experience of doing so is laudable. This applies to lots of types of projects: toy OSes, social networking protocols, web frameworks, what have you. Exploration is fun, and key to the hacker spirit. The difficulty comes from knowing the limitations of your skills. I got my web programming chops by reading a bunch of PHP tutorials back in 1998 and…

Here, here!

Learning someething, and selling (for money, or otherwise) the not-acceptable-for-use side effect of your learning something as a 'finished' product can be dangerous to the end customer.

Not being able to skateboard well means you're going to fall and bust your knees or elbows or face. It's dangerous to you, and potentially comedic to your compatriots.

Publishing a website full of XSS/SQLI problems and storing passwords and credit card numbers in plain text is dangerous to every person using your site, the business it's backing, and countless others in a 'could cost them real money and personal harm' fashion. It's also hilarious to some people (see HBGary / Valve / etc. hacks).

Compare software engineering to physical engineering - you don't let the kid out of highschool who's good with Lego Kinnects build a bridge or skyscraper. He goes through years of formal training, and then years more of on the job training, working his way up from Bus Stop Shelters to Sheds to Houses, etc. before he gets to that point.

THAT is the reason I'm highly critical of the efforts of people I know (or don't know in some instances). This shit ACTUALLY MATTERS beyond 'hey isn't that neat?'.

If you're doing some project on your laptop to learn a technology - Awesome, can I help you with questions/guidance?

If you've published something or sold something as a product and it's full of issues that could be serious problems to people down the line, What the fuck is your problem?

Unlike real engineers, who have a formal body of governance and redress for customers of shitty engineers, software engineering is the wild wild west. Many people just blame the computer, without realizing there was a person unqualified for the job sitting behind the computer making it work improperly. Until that changes (if ever), then I think it's the DUTY of geeks and nerds to challenge each other as harshly as possible, in an effort to prevent certain disaster.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#63

Post by Wolf_Larsen »

dansingerman wrote: post #51

I disagree with this. The difference in the examples cited is not sports vs hackers, it's communication in real life vs over the interwebs. In my experience most hackers are perfectly pleasant in person, happy to help if asked, and not substantially different to how the article describes the skaters. Conversely, I bet if you look at some skater videos on youtube they would be full of sarcasm and piss-taking (well the…

I agree with you.

One of the things to learn in life is who to listen to and who to ignore.

I can align with the author - being around people who do not accept mistakes or shortcomings as part of a positive learning process is frustrating - but saying that "Geeks" do this too often and more than other circles is untrue.

That idiot should just quit writing blog posts.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#64

Post by gnaritas »

stuhacking wrote: post #61
dexen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each of the `Excellent xxx' response you give differs in two important hitches from the `Insecure xxx': 1) it requires much common context, understanding, experience. Everybody will understand a ``this sucks'' response, regardless of the reasoning behind it being clear. Understanding a, and building better solution on, an involved response requires common understanding, common experience, between the parties of commu…

2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-) I realise that this is intended for humour, but more seriously, I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably with someone and making a friendly recommendation. ``This sucks'' just passes on the negativity to others.

> I have experienced much better anger reduction when actually chatting amiably

Great for you, but not everyone is you; some people need to vent to feel better.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#65

Post by jhamburger »

If we were to generalize and put nerds into three broad categories-

1. Lower-case 'n' nerds for whom coding is as much of a day job as it possibly can be and lead rewarding and socially active lives away from their computers.

2. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they find it to be rewarding in and of itself.

3. Nerds who are completely immersed in what they do because they aren't very good at anything else, and are bitter that being good at what they do isn't really socially rewarding.

I think most of our problems come from group #3.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#66

Post by Alex3917 »

knowtheory wrote: post #41
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been c…

"Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with."

The problem is that when people start mouthing off about factual issues they don't know anything about they can cause a lot of damage, so crushing them is often a necessity.

When you're in a situation where there is a lot of potential for damage and the other person isn't willing to have an intellectually honest debate about the facts then there isn't really much choice but to make them look like a moron.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#67

Post by DanI-S »

MrJagil wrote: post #59
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Can someone please explain the logic behind "condescending feedback = insecurity"? And I mean that sincerely. I have been thinking about this for a long time now, and I just cannot come up with any supporting evidence to explain the corelation. It might sound like a stupid request, but I think it is a hard argument to make totally water proof.

I see it this way: The only reason to give condescending feedback is to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're criticizing. If you truly wanted to be helpful, you'd be giving helpful feedback. If you were truly confident in your own abilities, you wouldn't feel the need to demonstrate your superiority.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#68

Post by dunstad »

agentultra wrote: post #11

It's true. I don't know how many times I've watched eager hackers get lambasted for "reinventing the wheel," or "don't bother doing it yourself, you'll just screw it up -- someone has probably done it already and did it better than you could." This happens most often at the intersection of technology and entrepreneurship. The business advice is that it's cheaper to buy it than build it. The engineer's perspective is…

"Every once in a while we need to reinvent the wheel. Not because we need more wheels, but because we need more inventors."

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#69

Post by [deleted] »

MrJagil wrote: post #59
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Can someone please explain the logic behind "condescending feedback = insecurity"? And I mean that sincerely. I have been thinking about this for a long time now, and I just cannot come up with any supporting evidence to explain the corelation. It might sound like a stupid request, but I think it is a hard argument to make totally water proof.

[deleted]

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#70

Post by blinks »

dansingerman wrote: post #51

I disagree with this. The difference in the examples cited is not sports vs hackers, it's communication in real life vs over the interwebs. In my experience most hackers are perfectly pleasant in person, happy to help if asked, and not substantially different to how the article describes the skaters. Conversely, I bet if you look at some skater videos on youtube they would be full of sarcasm and piss-taking (well the…

Skaters are actually pretty cool guys, in general. First skate video I found on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAvGzCPa0TU

Sample comments:

Asking for advice: > when you tre flip over something (gap, stairs or anything) does anyone else dangle their foot like this guy?

Generic compliment: > damn, nice

Complimenting form: > you land well clean kickflips

Observation of differences: > it realy is true how europe has alot more amazing skate spots n obstacles than america,

One troll: > u blow

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